64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis

X-TECH MAN · 10-18-2009, 07:35 AM

I hate to say...."I TOLD YOU SO"

James L Miller · 10-18-2009, 11:15 AM

The correct answer seems to be BOTH! I e-mailed a few folks I know that were around from the old days and have researched the cars. Here is a response from Jim Schild who wrote several books on the SS cars.

"There is no debate or should not be. The 1964 Hemi sedans were built exactly like a standard car on the line with the aluminum hood painted and installed with hinges in place. The hinges were removed and the pins and wing nuts installed at the final assembly facility. I am positive about the sequence because the original cars I have examined and original photos show that the body was not painted under the hinge and the hinge attachment area of the hood panel so the hinges were removed after the body was painted. Red primer or rust was visible under where the hinges would have been.
The white Dodge you see pictured in my books is in the delivery area at the Hamtramck plant being prepared for owner pickup at the Lynch Road U-Drive lot. All work has been done on the car at this time and it has left the assembly plant area. Pete Haldiman's book even has the name of the two guys working on the car. The original threaded hood pins may have been aluminum but they were flat on top.
I know of only one restored car with hinges in place and that is the white Dodge now owned by Todd Werner in Florida. The original owner (Barnes Drilling service) had the car being prepared at Landy's place in California and Dick's brother stepped on the original hood and bent it so they installed the hinges so the hood would not be removed. This particular car also has an incorrect battery mounting and a questionable right side upper control arm support. I am not sure about the authenticity of the control arm support but many restorers install the 1964 sedan batteries incorrectly because they found the Max Wedge brackets in place and assumed they were used. The brackets were there but they were not used on the Hemi sedans. They were used on the 70 1964 Hemi hardtops which had Max Wedge type battery mountings.
It may be interesting to note that both the 1964 and 1965 Hemi lightweight hoods came into the plant unpainted but with the scoop already installed. Sealer was installed around the perimeter of the scoop and the unit was painted as an assembly. All of the scoop fasteners and J-nuts should be painted body color."

James L Miller · 10-18-2009, 11:21 AM

More from Jim about Lee Smith's car:

"I see Lee Smith is in your email group. He picked up his white 1964 Plymouth Hemi sedan at Lynch Road in 1964 and he knows how they were delivered. I have a copy of his 8 mm movie from when he picked up the car and you can see the bare spots where the hood hinges were attached. I have also inspected and photographed an original 1964 Plymouth and the same thing is present. A 1964 article about Hayden Profitt's Plymouth also shows the bare spots on the hood. The cars were raced with the lift off hoods."

Hopefully I'll hear from Lee about his testimony and recollections. This should pretty well clear up the debate unless Lee or someone else contradicts this.

James L Miller · 10-19-2009, 11:07 PM

I found a document from Chrysler Product Planning addressed to Wally Parks on what appears to be the "6.40" cars (aluminum bumper, doors, light glass, single headlight and the mag wheels on the front). From the description, it sounds like the earlier Hemi cars had the standard hinge and latch mechanism. I tried to attach the document, and after downsizing it TWICE (stupid thing has to have the right rotation instead of total pixels), the system went down or something. Fourth time is a charm (I hope).

SuperStockDodge · 10-25-2009, 08:55 AM

I visited with Jim this weekend at Noble and he wanted everyone (to whom may be concerned about a certain '64 Plymouth Belvedere) that the car is doing well and has a race hemi back in it...

X-TECH MAN · 10-25-2009, 09:45 AM

I dont think to many really care but just to let you know I was looking at Tony DePollow's (sp?) 64 savoy running SS/A (with the weight out) at the Dutch Classic and it had the hood attached by 4 hood pins. No henges visable.

Tony DePillo · 10-29-2009, 07:11 AM

1964 Wedge cars, hood was conventional. 1964 Hemi Sedans had a lift off hood. 1965 A990 cars went back to conventional hood attachment. We have been through this with NHRA, we have produced the proper Chrysler documentation to support the lift off hood.
I could find photos to support either method but why bother. Look at a FWD GT conversion, then look at a 1964 SS hemi, which one do you think looks like a stock car?
Let me have the Clutchless gearbox in B and I'll put hood hinges on my old pig.

10-18-2009, 07:35 AM	#1
X-TECH MAN Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lake Placid, Florida Posts: 3,203 Likes: 1,047 Liked 235 Times in 110 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis I hate to say...."I TOLD YOU SO"

10-18-2009, 11:15 AM	#2
James L Miller Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 494 Likes: 6 Liked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis The correct answer seems to be BOTH! I e-mailed a few folks I know that were around from the old days and have researched the cars. Here is a response from Jim Schild who wrote several books on the SS cars. "There is no debate or should not be. The 1964 Hemi sedans were built exactly like a standard car on the line with the aluminum hood painted and installed with hinges in place. The hinges were removed and the pins and wing nuts installed at the final assembly facility. I am positive about the sequence because the original cars I have examined and original photos show that the body was not painted under the hinge and the hinge attachment area of the hood panel so the hinges were removed after the body was painted. Red primer or rust was visible under where the hinges would have been. The white Dodge you see pictured in my books is in the delivery area at the Hamtramck plant being prepared for owner pickup at the Lynch Road U-Drive lot. All work has been done on the car at this time and it has left the assembly plant area. Pete Haldiman's book even has the name of the two guys working on the car. The original threaded hood pins may have been aluminum but they were flat on top. I know of only one restored car with hinges in place and that is the white Dodge now owned by Todd Werner in Florida. The original owner (Barnes Drilling service) had the car being prepared at Landy's place in California and Dick's brother stepped on the original hood and bent it so they installed the hinges so the hood would not be removed. This particular car also has an incorrect battery mounting and a questionable right side upper control arm support. I am not sure about the authenticity of the control arm support but many restorers install the 1964 sedan batteries incorrectly because they found the Max Wedge brackets in place and assumed they were used. The brackets were there but they were not used on the Hemi sedans. They were used on the 70 1964 Hemi hardtops which had Max Wedge type battery mountings. It may be interesting to note that both the 1964 and 1965 Hemi lightweight hoods came into the plant unpainted but with the scoop already installed. Sealer was installed around the perimeter of the scoop and the unit was painted as an assembly. All of the scoop fasteners and J-nuts should be painted body color." __________________ Mopar 2 Ya!

10-18-2009, 11:21 AM	#3
James L Miller Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 494 Likes: 6 Liked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis More from Jim about Lee Smith's car: "I see Lee Smith is in your email group. He picked up his white 1964 Plymouth Hemi sedan at Lynch Road in 1964 and he knows how they were delivered. I have a copy of his 8 mm movie from when he picked up the car and you can see the bare spots where the hood hinges were attached. I have also inspected and photographed an original 1964 Plymouth and the same thing is present. A 1964 article about Hayden Profitt's Plymouth also shows the bare spots on the hood. The cars were raced with the lift off hoods." Hopefully I'll hear from Lee about his testimony and recollections. This should pretty well clear up the debate unless Lee or someone else contradicts this. __________________ Mopar 2 Ya!

10-19-2009, 11:07 PM	#4
James L Miller Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 494 Likes: 6 Liked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis I found a document from Chrysler Product Planning addressed to Wally Parks on what appears to be the "6.40" cars (aluminum bumper, doors, light glass, single headlight and the mag wheels on the front). From the description, it sounds like the earlier Hemi cars had the standard hinge and latch mechanism. I tried to attach the document, and after downsizing it TWICE (stupid thing has to have the right rotation instead of total pixels), the system went down or something. Fourth time is a charm (I hope). Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mopar 2 Ya!

10-25-2009, 08:55 AM	#5
SuperStockDodge Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stickville USA Posts: 261 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis I visited with Jim this weekend at Noble and he wanted everyone (to whom may be concerned about a certain '64 Plymouth Belvedere) that the car is doing well and has a race hemi back in it... Attached Thumbnails

10-25-2009, 09:45 AM	#6
X-TECH MAN Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lake Placid, Florida Posts: 3,203 Likes: 1,047 Liked 235 Times in 110 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis I dont think to many really care but just to let you know I was looking at Tony DePollow's (sp?) 64 savoy running SS/A (with the weight out) at the Dutch Classic and it had the hood attached by 4 hood pins. No henges visable.

10-29-2009, 07:11 AM	#7
Tony DePillo Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dayton Ohio Posts: 41 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis 1964 Wedge cars, hood was conventional. 1964 Hemi Sedans had a lift off hood. 1965 A990 cars went back to conventional hood attachment. We have been through this with NHRA, we have produced the proper Chrysler documentation to support the lift off hood. I could find photos to support either method but why bother. Look at a FWD GT conversion, then look at a 1964 SS hemi, which one do you think looks like a stock car? Let me have the Clutchless gearbox in B and I'll put hood hinges on my old pig.