64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis

Stewart Way · 10-10-2009, 08:23 AM

Although the rule book says any production V8 of the same make, year optional, there is another unwritten rule. If the car you run in GT has a functional hoodscoop your engine combo has to have come from a fresh air combo. At least that is what Bruce Bachelder has told me. For the Mopar, anything from 340 up was available with a shaker in 70 and the Chally Drag Pac engines will work.

2021STK · 10-11-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart Way

Although the rule book says any production V8 of the same make, year optional, there is another unwritten rule. If the car you run in GT has a functional hoodscoop your engine combo has to have come from a fresh air combo. At least that is what Bruce Bachelder has told me. For the Mopar, anything from 340 up was available with a shaker in 70 and the Chally Drag Pac engines will work.

I just asked NHRA tech this week at Dinwiddie about fresh air in GT classes. I was told the engine going in the car had to have fresh air as original/optional equipment to run it in GT with a fresh air hood. This sounds Ok but what about a car that had a fresh air hood as original equipment with another engine? I was given the answer "it's a gray area, I'll look into it", fair enough. I don't know how you can configure a car body/hood for fresh air that didn't have it as original equipment, way out example: L88 in a Cobalt. I could see a fresh air body/hood with a different engine, wayout example#2: '68 Hemi 'Cuda body with a 273. Might be that the original engine & body BOTH had to have fresh air to be legal in GT. I thought this came up before on the forum but I couldn't find a link to it, can anybody help out?

Thanks,
Dave Outten

Jared Jordan · 10-11-2009, 10:15 AM

For what it's worth:

It's the ex-Chuck Rayburn, ex-Jim Hale '64 Hemi car. Jim ran it for a few years in the early part of the decade and then Chuck acquired it and ran it for some time. Recently, Chuck and Jim swapped cars with Chuck receiving a '68 Cuda for SS/AH competition.

I believe in GT/EA that it's a 383 combo which, if it's the 300 Hp combo, would only need to weigh 3170 for that class.

Stewart Way · 10-11-2009, 10:38 AM

Dave
The rulebook does not allow the addition of scoops on a GT car. The GT section 9B says "The requirements and specifications for GT classes are the same as those for Super Stock classes - Section 9A - with the following exceptions:" and there are no exceptions for hoodscoops in the GT section 9B. There is, however, a phrase in SS Section 9A "Hood openings and/or hood scoops other than original equipment prohibited.". It would appear that those two statements eliminate the ability to add fresh air to a non fresh air car. Nothing I see keeps someone from running the fresh air engine in a non fresh air car , just no fresh air.

Adger Smith · 10-11-2009, 11:28 AM

How does it work going the other way?? Like a 69 Vette body W/L-88 fresh air hood and a '66 327 engine that was not equipped with fresh air... would that be allowed in GT classes? It seems to me like the precedent is already set. It has already been done/allowed with the 69 Camaro running cowl induction hoods with non fresh air engine combos in Stock, SS and SS/GT. Is a Mopar and Fomoco "forward facing scoop" really a different application than some of the cowl or rear facing fresh air systems from other MFG's? It's all about cool clean air, no matter how you get it.
The way I read the rule book using a fresh air body with a non fresh air engine should be allowed.
Because:
1. When you pick a body for the GT class It says nothing in the rules about limiting the bodies to non fresh air applications.
2. When you pick an engine. It clearly says under engine:1 V-8 only; must be same make as body.Year optional. Engine must be listed in both the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide and NHRA Blueprint Bulletins. Again it says nothing about limiting it to non Fresh Air engines

GT classes Mix combinations of bodies and engines. If it is allowed one way, it should be allowed going the other way. .

I really don't see that there is a problem with any "Body Package" that was produced by a MFG running any "Engine Combination" that was produced by the same MFG. as long as they are listed in the applicable NHRA guides.
Maybe we should go back as far as the inception of the GT Classes to see the "intent". Which I thought was to allow the mixing of SS engine combos and body combinations that weren't available with each other. Our resident GT historian Don Kennedy might be able to shine a little more light on the reason for GT Classes.

2021STK · 10-11-2009, 01:00 PM

Stewart, I do understand no scoops are allowed to be added in GT, I was just trying to illustrate/exaggerate the fresh air engine concept in a non-fresh air body for the sake of this conversation.

Adger, I agree with your view 100%, that is exactly the way I read the rulebook. In fact the '69 Corvette L88 hooded car was the example I used in Dinwiddie this weekend at tech. I hadn't seen a '69 Camaro with a cowl hood yet in GT but that is an identical situation that I'm trying to clarify, I appreciate you pointing that out.

Thanks guys,
Dave

R GARY · 10-11-2009, 03:11 PM

How would you run a 68 cutlass w/fresh air to a cowl induction 396 in GT class. Ron

mopar68 · 10-11-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adger Smith

Maybe we should go back as far as the inception of the GT Classes to see the "intent". Which I thought was to allow the mixing of SS engine combos and body combinations that weren't available with each other. Our resident GT historian Don Kennedy might be able to shine a little more light on the reason for GT Classes.

Yeah, maybe we should: The original Super Stock GT classes were designed for early-model engines in late-model cars. Period. Nothing else!!

M68

bill dedman · 10-11-2009, 06:40 PM

Several things I don't understand, here (maybe I'm not supposed to)...

1. The wheelbase should stay with the chassis, right? I.E., if the car body was from a '64 Plymouth Hemi car that originally had a 1-inch shorter wheelbase (than the rest of the '64 b-body Pilgrims), why would NHRA tech disallow that wheelbase just because another engine will be run in the car (say, a 340?) as a GT car?????? Or, would they?

2. In a GT class car, If you run a non-fresh air engine in a car body that came from the factory with a fresh air scoop (say, a '68 Hemi Barracuda, for instance), wouldn't it be mandatory to close off that fresh air if your engine didn't have a fresh air variant, in which case, you'd just use the only factor listed? Could you just remove the scoop and make a "flat hood" out of it, or, does the scoop have to stay, even though it's closed off at the bottom, and is non-functioning???

3. What is the downside of the "new" rules that allow "old bodies" with newer engines to run GT? People are talking about possibly reverting back to the "old rules", and I don't understand the reason why.

Anybody? Don't we need all the cars we can attract?

Thanks for any information...

mopar68 · 10-11-2009, 06:45 PM

"Maybe it was a change as they were built ??? but the pictures I have show 4 hood pins and complete removal of the hood in the pits and placed on the roof of the cars."

IMO, this does not sound like a factory setup. At least not for Super/Stock. Maybe A/FX? If I were a betting man (and I am), I'd bet that it was a racer modification.

Personally, I've never seen any pix of those cars with a quick release (i.e. hood pins) system installed allowing quick hood removal.

Here are some early pix of those cars at Beeline Dragway in 1964:

http://arizonaracinghistory.com/64winternats.htm

Granted, most if not all of those cars pictured there are Max Wedge cars since (I'm pretty sure) the 426 HEMI was released in April of 1964.*

M68

* Or was it February?

** Yeah, it was February 1964 because Richard Petty won the Daytona 500 with a Hemi under the hood as well as the 2nd and 3rd place finishers.

10-10-2009, 08:23 AM	#1
Stewart Way Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 476 Likes: 20 Liked 70 Times in 22 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis Although the rule book says any production V8 of the same make, year optional, there is another unwritten rule. If the car you run in GT has a functional hoodscoop your engine combo has to have come from a fresh air combo. At least that is what Bruce Bachelder has told me. For the Mopar, anything from 340 up was available with a shaker in 70 and the Chally Drag Pac engines will work.

10-11-2009, 10:15 AM	#3
Jared Jordan Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Modesto, CA Posts: 612 Likes: 196 Liked 533 Times in 118 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis For what it's worth: It's the ex-Chuck Rayburn, ex-Jim Hale '64 Hemi car. Jim ran it for a few years in the early part of the decade and then Chuck acquired it and ran it for some time. Recently, Chuck and Jim swapped cars with Chuck receiving a '68 Cuda for SS/AH competition. I believe in GT/EA that it's a 383 combo which, if it's the 300 Hp combo, would only need to weigh 3170 for that class. __________________ Jared Jordan 9 B/SA 2024 Jeg's D7 All Star - Stock

10-11-2009, 10:38 AM	#4
Stewart Way Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 476 Likes: 20 Liked 70 Times in 22 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis Dave The rulebook does not allow the addition of scoops on a GT car. The GT section 9B says "The requirements and specifications for GT classes are the same as those for Super Stock classes - Section 9A - with the following exceptions:" and there are no exceptions for hoodscoops in the GT section 9B. There is, however, a phrase in SS Section 9A "Hood openings and/or hood scoops other than original equipment prohibited.". It would appear that those two statements eliminate the ability to add fresh air to a non fresh air car. Nothing I see keeps someone from running the fresh air engine in a non fresh air car , just no fresh air.

10-11-2009, 11:28 AM	#5
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,446 Likes: 575 Liked 880 Times in 311 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis How does it work going the other way?? Like a 69 Vette body W/L-88 fresh air hood and a '66 327 engine that was not equipped with fresh air... would that be allowed in GT classes? It seems to me like the precedent is already set. It has already been done/allowed with the 69 Camaro running cowl induction hoods with non fresh air engine combos in Stock, SS and SS/GT. Is a Mopar and Fomoco "forward facing scoop" really a different application than some of the cowl or rear facing fresh air systems from other MFG's? It's all about cool clean air, no matter how you get it. The way I read the rule book using a fresh air body with a non fresh air engine should be allowed. Because: 1. When you pick a body for the GT class It says nothing in the rules about limiting the bodies to non fresh air applications. 2. When you pick an engine. It clearly says under engine:1 V-8 only; must be same make as body.Year optional. Engine must be listed in both the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide and NHRA Blueprint Bulletins. Again it says nothing about limiting it to non Fresh Air engines GT classes Mix combinations of bodies and engines. If it is allowed one way, it should be allowed going the other way. . I really don't see that there is a problem with any "Body Package" that was produced by a MFG running any "Engine Combination" that was produced by the same MFG. as long as they are listed in the applicable NHRA guides. Maybe we should go back as far as the inception of the GT Classes to see the "intent". Which I thought was to allow the mixing of SS engine combos and body combinations that weren't available with each other. Our resident GT historian Don Kennedy might be able to shine a little more light on the reason for GT Classes. __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS) Last edited by Adger Smith; 10-11-2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: sp

10-11-2009, 01:00 PM	#6
2021STK Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 281 Likes: 280 Liked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis Stewart, I do understand no scoops are allowed to be added in GT, I was just trying to illustrate/exaggerate the fresh air engine concept in a non-fresh air body for the sake of this conversation. Adger, I agree with your view 100%, that is exactly the way I read the rulebook. In fact the '69 Corvette L88 hooded car was the example I used in Dinwiddie this weekend at tech. I hadn't seen a '69 Camaro with a cowl hood yet in GT but that is an identical situation that I'm trying to clarify, I appreciate you pointing that out. Thanks guys, Dave

10-11-2009, 03:11 PM	#7
R GARY Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: edmond okla Posts: 17 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis How would you run a 68 cutlass w/fresh air to a cowl induction 396 in GT class. Ron

10-11-2009, 06:40 PM	#9
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis Several things I don't understand, here (maybe I'm not supposed to)... 1. The wheelbase should stay with the chassis, right? I.E., if the car body was from a '64 Plymouth Hemi car that originally had a 1-inch shorter wheelbase (than the rest of the '64 b-body Pilgrims), why would NHRA tech disallow that wheelbase just because another engine will be run in the car (say, a 340?) as a GT car?????? Or, would they? 2. In a GT class car, If you run a non-fresh air engine in a car body that came from the factory with a fresh air scoop (say, a '68 Hemi Barracuda, for instance), wouldn't it be mandatory to close off that fresh air if your engine didn't have a fresh air variant, in which case, you'd just use the only factor listed? Could you just remove the scoop and make a "flat hood" out of it, or, does the scoop have to stay, even though it's closed off at the bottom, and is non-functioning??? 3. What is the downside of the "new" rules that allow "old bodies" with newer engines to run GT? People are talking about possibly reverting back to the "old rules", and I don't understand the reason why. Anybody? Don't we need all the cars we can attract? Thanks for any information... __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 10-11-2009 at 06:44 PM. Reason: mistakes... lots of 'em....

10-11-2009, 06:45 PM	#10
mopar68 VIP Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,660 Likes: 8 Liked 44 Times in 27 Posts	Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis "Maybe it was a change as they were built ??? but the pictures I have show 4 hood pins and complete removal of the hood in the pits and placed on the roof of the cars." IMO, this does not sound like a factory setup. At least not for Super/Stock. Maybe A/FX? If I were a betting man (and I am), I'd bet that it was a racer modification. Personally, I've never seen any pix of those cars with a quick release (i.e. hood pins) system installed allowing quick hood removal. Here are some early pix of those cars at Beeline Dragway in 1964: http://arizonaracinghistory.com/64winternats.htm Granted, most if not all of those cars pictured there are Max Wedge cars since (I'm pretty sure) the 426 HEMI was released in April of 1964.* M68 * Or was it February? ** Yeah, it was February 1964 because Richard Petty won the Daytona 500 with a Hemi under the hood as well as the 2nd and 3rd place finishers. Last edited by mopar68; 10-11-2009 at 07:35 PM.