To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk

Ryan Horensky · 09-07-2009, 08:41 PM

Tree Savoy....Apparently you do not know much about sportsman racing in stock eliminator in this era. I am friends with Bill Hawk, but have never had the opportunity to meet the Ford's due to our geographic location in the country. People try to save their combinations at every race. The horsepower system makes that even more difficult. For instance: my father runs a 68 Shelby in A/SA currently. If we go 1.15 under and do not attend another national event we can get horsepower on our combo, because there are no other 68 Shelbys racing in the entire country with our combination to dilute the average. Its pretty disheartening to have to put weight in your car because you made one fast run during the season at a big race and do not attend another race during normal conditions to run average ET's. Especially if you put up a huge run during extreme conditions, but do not have the opportunity to go that fast at any race during the course of the season. Bill had no other choice but to get the combo hit if he wanted to run A/SA. I can see why the Ford's may be upset by what happened, but I can also see Bill's perspective on the situation. I myself am finishing up graduate school like Austin and do not have the funding to travel to races the way I want to. I think this is just part of racing.....and disagreements come with it. Hopefully both parties can make up and still be friends after what has transpired. I'm not trying to play mediator....just trying to state to tree savoy that stock elimator is not balls to the wall first one to the finish line wins type of racing. I don't think it has ever been with the exception of class elimations and heads up races. Besides that we all have to put dials on our windows and go bracket racing 95% of the time

Ryan Horensky
1273 C/SA

Shawn Blair · 09-07-2009, 09:09 PM

Wow and I thought stock and superstock were performance classes!

junior barns · 09-07-2009, 11:08 PM

the funny thing is as soon as bill gets his a%$ kicked in A/SA by one of the new stangs by as much as they want to, he will be back into B/SA where he can dominate..

The hp hit he took will be for?????????????????????

LilBlueDeuce · 09-08-2009, 08:10 AM

I am a huge Stock and Super Stock fan. I have always wanted to race a Stocker and still hope to someday. But man is it disheartening to hear all the talk about saving combinations and racing to 1000ft and such. To me as a fan, that is one of the biggest problems with S/SS today.

Quote:

just trying to state to tree savoy that stock elimator is not balls to the wall first one to the finish line wins type of racing. I don't think it has ever been with the exception of class elimations and heads up races.

Really? I am not old enough to have watched S/SS when they raced off the indexes, but it sure seems like that would have helped keep the performance in a performance class. If you don't think S/SS should be balls to the wall racing, maybe you are in the wrong class.

Evan Smith · 09-08-2009, 09:00 AM

The point for many S/SS racers is to build a fast car, because that is the original spirit of the class and many still get a thrill from out running the competition, be it during qualifying, Class Eliminations or during a random heads-up run.

Unfortunately, the AHFS has NOT kept up with the performance of the cars. It's just not that hard to run 1.15 under (just look at Indy qualifying), and NHRA hasn't made the necessary changes to keep up with the fact that today's Stockers are more advanced thanks to aftermarket brakes, radial tires, lightweight clutches, ultra-lightweight automatic transmissions, data-logging, etc. So widespread sandbagging has become the norm because who would spend all that time and money, just to add weight after a few months?

The SRAC tried desperately to make NHRA to understand that this was/is a big problem. We offered solid suggestions to help NHRA make necessary changes to the trigger system so those willing to spend money/time/brainpower/etc. were not wasting their time by improving their cars just to have them factored. We got nowhere! I can't tell you where in the chain of command it made it to, but somewhere our words fell on deaf ears. It's quite sad actually, because moving the triggers would not affect the slower cars, but would reward the fast guys.

I'm not on here to bash NHRA, but there is some work/changes that needs to be made to make racing better. There is talk of dropping the indexes, and i think that is a big joke. All that needs to be done is to modify the triggers a little so there is more incentive to run all out. Additionally, all runs need to count towards the AHFS. Of course more racers would get hit, but the current system doesn't represent the majority of runs.

MOST racers go to 1-3 nationals events a year, but many more Opens and Points races. It's easy to sandbag 1-3 times a year to save your average, but who is going to do that all the time? So, if you want the real data, you have to look at all runs, including factored tracks and mine-shaft weather tracks. Then make educated changes based on a bevy of runs, not one or two killer passes that don't represent the class or combo average.

Evan

Jack McCarthy · 09-08-2009, 09:19 AM

"MOST racers go to 1-3 nationals events a year, but many more Opens and Points races. It's easy to sandbag 1-3 times a year to save your average, but who is going to do that all the time? So, if you want the real data, you have to look at all runs, including factored tracks and mine-shaft weather tracks. Then make educated changes based on a bevy of runs, not one or two killer passes that don't represent the class or combo average."

AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE !!!!!!!

great post evan, youre hitting the nail on the head with educated changes...
"the AHFS cannot and will not ever work BECAUSE we manipulate the numbers"...
...b/sa class final... hawk... brakelight racing in CLASS...Draining water to miss weight and DQ run...its all over here in black and white every day. we need someone educated in S & SS doing this like provaost / woodro / other retirees ?
and youre so right, no-one in the food part of the chain of command knows enough or cares enough to give a ****... they are way too scared about pro sponsors drying up to be worried about the SHEEP.

jack mccarthy

p.s. did mustangs getting tossed DQ all thier runs ???? save combo a guaranteed hit ??? just wondering

Ryan Horensky · 09-08-2009, 01:24 PM

LilBlueDeuce,

I think its great that you are a stock/super stock fan. I think our classes could def use more of them. But as far as you telling me that I'm in the wrong class...That may be a pretty ignorant observation being you have never met me. You highlighted a portion of my post that I thought answered itself, but I guess I was wrong. In stock and super stock it is very important to have a fast car in order to be competitive. Most every stock/super stock racer takes pride in making sure they have a fast piece capable of winning heads-up races.We all qualify off an index, have class eliminations, and have occasional heads-up races during eliminations. All performance oriented aspects of stock/super stock racing. I myself have probobly had two heads-up races during eliminations in the entire time I have raced stock. Many racers I'm sure have had far more races of that type.The rest of the time I'm putting a dial on the window. I'm sorry if I confused anyone with the wording in my post. stock/super stock is performance oriented, but is also a bracket race with classed cars aside from qualifying, class, and heads-up races. Hope I cleared up any confusion. I'm def not on here to argue with anyone.

Ryan Horensky
1273 C/SA

treessavoy · 09-08-2009, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Horensky

Tree Savoy....Apparently you do not know much about sportsman racing in stock eliminator in this era. I am friends with Bill Hawk, but have never had the opportunity to meet the Ford's due to our geographic location in the country. People try to save their combinations at every race. The horsepower system makes that even more difficult. For instance: my father runs a 68 Shelby in A/SA currently. If we go 1.15 under and do not attend another national event we can get horsepower on our combo, because there are no other 68 Shelbys racing in the entire country with our combination to dilute the average. Its pretty disheartening to have to put weight in your car because you made one fast run during the season at a big race and do not attend another race during normal conditions to run average ET's. Especially if you put up a huge run during extreme conditions, but do not have the opportunity to go that fast at any race during the course of the season. Bill had no other choice but to get the combo hit if he wanted to run A/SA. I can see why the Ford's may be upset by what happened, but I can also see Bill's perspective on the situation. I myself am finishing up graduate school like Austin and do not have the funding to travel to races the way I want to. I think this is just part of racing.....and disagreements come with it. Hopefully both parties can make up and still be friends after what has transpired. I'm not trying to play mediator....just trying to state to tree savoy that stock elimator is not balls to the wall first one to the finish line wins type of racing. I don't think it has ever been with the exception of class elimations and heads up races. Besides that we all have to put dials on our windows and go bracket racing 95% of the time

Ryan Horensky
1273 C/SA

Ryan,

Since I'm new to this sport, started in 1964, I'm glad you explained this style of non-racing to me.

All of this is bull s**t!

Drag racing is: run all out, get to the stripe first and it's always been that way. You "new wave" racers think it's all about protecting your HP. NO, it's about running as quick as you can and winning or losing.

When I first started racing it was off National records, you ran as hard as you could in order to re-set that record and you were proud to see your name in the magazine and paint "NHRA Record Holder" on your car.

How proud are you to say that you dumped a race because you were afraid of getting hp?

Real Drag Racers run hard to the finish line, the rest of you are just playing some game.

JimR

lstanford · 09-09-2009, 07:02 AM

It's to bad that people with a disagreement don't just call one another and settle the problem in private. I was always told that you don't wash your laundry in public. Politics and games have ruined drag racing for the majority of us.

Bart Kilraine · 09-09-2009, 08:51 AM

Balls to the wall,1st. to the strip would be great for stock eliminator,for the 7 or 8 cars that showed up !

09-07-2009, 08:41 PM	#1
Ryan Horensky Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sugarloaf,PA Posts: 201 Likes: 19 Liked 109 Times in 18 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk Tree Savoy....Apparently you do not know much about sportsman racing in stock eliminator in this era. I am friends with Bill Hawk, but have never had the opportunity to meet the Ford's due to our geographic location in the country. People try to save their combinations at every race. The horsepower system makes that even more difficult. For instance: my father runs a 68 Shelby in A/SA currently. If we go 1.15 under and do not attend another national event we can get horsepower on our combo, because there are no other 68 Shelbys racing in the entire country with our combination to dilute the average. Its pretty disheartening to have to put weight in your car because you made one fast run during the season at a big race and do not attend another race during normal conditions to run average ET's. Especially if you put up a huge run during extreme conditions, but do not have the opportunity to go that fast at any race during the course of the season. Bill had no other choice but to get the combo hit if he wanted to run A/SA. I can see why the Ford's may be upset by what happened, but I can also see Bill's perspective on the situation. I myself am finishing up graduate school like Austin and do not have the funding to travel to races the way I want to. I think this is just part of racing.....and disagreements come with it. Hopefully both parties can make up and still be friends after what has transpired. I'm not trying to play mediator....just trying to state to tree savoy that stock elimator is not balls to the wall first one to the finish line wins type of racing. I don't think it has ever been with the exception of class elimations and heads up races. Besides that we all have to put dials on our windows and go bracket racing 95% of the time Ryan Horensky 1273 C/SA

09-07-2009, 09:09 PM	#2
Shawn Blair Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Everson, WA. Posts: 122 Likes: 1 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk Wow and I thought stock and superstock were performance classes! __________________ Shawn Blair 6383 SS 634 STK

09-07-2009, 11:08 PM	#3
junior barns Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 541 Likes: 11 Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk the funny thing is as soon as bill gets his a%$ kicked in A/SA by one of the new stangs by as much as they want to, he will be back into B/SA where he can dominate.. The hp hit he took will be for?????????????????????

09-08-2009, 09:00 AM	#5
Evan Smith Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 400 Likes: 7 Liked 115 Times in 5 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk The point for many S/SS racers is to build a fast car, because that is the original spirit of the class and many still get a thrill from out running the competition, be it during qualifying, Class Eliminations or during a random heads-up run. Unfortunately, the AHFS has NOT kept up with the performance of the cars. It's just not that hard to run 1.15 under (just look at Indy qualifying), and NHRA hasn't made the necessary changes to keep up with the fact that today's Stockers are more advanced thanks to aftermarket brakes, radial tires, lightweight clutches, ultra-lightweight automatic transmissions, data-logging, etc. So widespread sandbagging has become the norm because who would spend all that time and money, just to add weight after a few months? The SRAC tried desperately to make NHRA to understand that this was/is a big problem. We offered solid suggestions to help NHRA make necessary changes to the trigger system so those willing to spend money/time/brainpower/etc. were not wasting their time by improving their cars just to have them factored. We got nowhere! I can't tell you where in the chain of command it made it to, but somewhere our words fell on deaf ears. It's quite sad actually, because moving the triggers would not affect the slower cars, but would reward the fast guys. I'm not on here to bash NHRA, but there is some work/changes that needs to be made to make racing better. There is talk of dropping the indexes, and i think that is a big joke. All that needs to be done is to modify the triggers a little so there is more incentive to run all out. Additionally, all runs need to count towards the AHFS. Of course more racers would get hit, but the current system doesn't represent the majority of runs. MOST racers go to 1-3 nationals events a year, but many more Opens and Points races. It's easy to sandbag 1-3 times a year to save your average, but who is going to do that all the time? So, if you want the real data, you have to look at all runs, including factored tracks and mine-shaft weather tracks. Then make educated changes based on a bevy of runs, not one or two killer passes that don't represent the class or combo average. Evan __________________ Evan Smith 1798 STK

09-08-2009, 09:19 AM	#6
Jack McCarthy VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: lyndon ky. ... louisville area Posts: 1,322 Likes: 29 Liked 477 Times in 117 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk "MOST racers go to 1-3 nationals events a year, but many more Opens and Points races. It's easy to sandbag 1-3 times a year to save your average, but who is going to do that all the time? So, if you want the real data, you have to look at all runs, including factored tracks and mine-shaft weather tracks. Then make educated changes based on a bevy of runs, not one or two killer passes that don't represent the class or combo average." AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE !!!!!!! great post evan, youre hitting the nail on the head with educated changes... "the AHFS cannot and will not ever work BECAUSE we manipulate the numbers"... ...b/sa class final... hawk... brakelight racing in CLASS...Draining water to miss weight and DQ run...its all over here in black and white every day. we need someone educated in S & SS doing this like provaost / woodro / other retirees ? and youre so right, no-one in the food part of the chain of command knows enough or cares enough to give a ****... they are way too scared about pro sponsors drying up to be worried about the SHEEP. jack mccarthy p.s. did mustangs getting tossed DQ all thier runs ???? save combo a guaranteed hit ??? just wondering __________________ Jack McCarthy 3609 STK "the Captain"

09-08-2009, 01:24 PM	#7
Ryan Horensky Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sugarloaf,PA Posts: 201 Likes: 19 Liked 109 Times in 18 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk LilBlueDeuce, I think its great that you are a stock/super stock fan. I think our classes could def use more of them. But as far as you telling me that I'm in the wrong class...That may be a pretty ignorant observation being you have never met me. You highlighted a portion of my post that I thought answered itself, but I guess I was wrong. In stock and super stock it is very important to have a fast car in order to be competitive. Most every stock/super stock racer takes pride in making sure they have a fast piece capable of winning heads-up races.We all qualify off an index, have class eliminations, and have occasional heads-up races during eliminations. All performance oriented aspects of stock/super stock racing. I myself have probobly had two heads-up races during eliminations in the entire time I have raced stock. Many racers I'm sure have had far more races of that type.The rest of the time I'm putting a dial on the window. I'm sorry if I confused anyone with the wording in my post. stock/super stock is performance oriented, but is also a bracket race with classed cars aside from qualifying, class, and heads-up races. Hope I cleared up any confusion. I'm def not on here to argue with anyone. Ryan Horensky 1273 C/SA

09-09-2009, 07:02 AM	#9
lstanford Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 312 Likes: 1 Liked 134 Times in 32 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk It's to bad that people with a disagreement don't just call one another and settle the problem in private. I was always told that you don't wash your laundry in public. Politics and games have ruined drag racing for the majority of us.

09-09-2009, 08:51 AM	#10
Bart Kilraine Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Carrolltown,PA Posts: 118 Likes: 0 Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Re: To: Austin Ford From: Bill Hawk Balls to the wall,1st. to the strip would be great for stock eliminator,for the 7 or 8 cars that showed up !