Bob Shaw is a bad man

[bill dedman]

If someone doesn't respect this man, and what he has done, it's obvious they just don't understand Stock Eliminator racing at all!!! LOL!

[Billy Nees]

Bret, Bob has ALWAYS had my respect!

[BobUnkefer]

I've had the opportunity to chat with Bob numerous times & HIGHLY repsect the man. Sharp as a tack and a great (dry) sense of humor. I'll guarantee that if he hasn't seen this thread yet, he will, and he'll get a good chuckle out of it when he does.

Like Bret said, when you think about the cars that he's assembled over the years and the numbers that they've run, you HAVE to admire the man.

Guess everyone should be glad he's not running Fords CJ show, or all of us would be in trouble.......

See you in Houston,

Unk

[Evan Smith]

Ed and Dedman,

I am in complete agreement with both of you, and long before I posted, trust me I understood the difference between the circumstances and the effect, as a whole, on Stock Eliminator. My point is that if any combination can run that far under, which I will remind you that the CJ's have yet to do, then where are all those who bashed the CJ based on the sole fact that is it underrated? I know it is not GM or Cadillac's intent to own Stock. But the facts are the facts and this is a combo that is way out of whack. I personally could care less, but if people are going to get on here and act like they care about Stock Eliminator then they should be screaming about this. Again, no offense to Bob and however much work he puts into his cars. We all know he is a smart and talented racer.

My post has nothing to do with Bob Shaw and everything to do with the fact that many of you got on here and told stories of how Stock was going to be ruined by the CJ. For what it is worth, Hensen ruined the Hemi, someone ruined the 440-6 B-body package in two weekends—it happens. Ultimately it will happen to t he CJ cars. I don't care if it one car that is out of line. Principals are principals and many of you are proving that you will pick and choose your battles based on what suits you.



Evan

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

Ed and Dedman,

I am in complete agreement with both of you, and long before I posted, trust me I understood the difference between the circumstances and the effect, as a whole, on Stock Eliminator. My point is that if any combination can run that far under, which I will remind you that the CJ's have yet to do, then where are all those who bashed the CJ based on the sole fact that is it underrated? I know it is not GM or Cadillac's intent to own Stock. But the facts are the facts and this is a combo that is way out of whack. I personally could care less, but if people are going to get on here and act like they care about Stock Eliminator then they should be screaming about this. Again, no offense to Bob and however much work he puts into his cars. We all know he is a smart and talented racer.

My post has nothing to do with Bob Shaw and everything to do with the fact that many of you got on here and told stories of how Stock was going to be ruined by the CJ. For what it is worth, Hensen ruined the Hemi, someone ruined the 440-6 B-body package in two weekends—it happens. Ultimately it will happen to t he CJ cars. I don't care if it one car that is out of line. Principals are principals and many of you are proving that you will pick and choose your battles based on what suits you.



Evan

Evan;
I'm a retiree living on a pension.(Hymie Roth in The Godfather Part 2).

Ed

[bill dedman]

Evan,
Principals belong in high schools; principles are the sticking points that we get on here and blather about, having nothing better to do (I'm a retiree, too.) LOL!

In reference to the Bob Shaw Caddy motor's factor, you said, "this is a combo that is way out of whack." I can't imagine ANYBODY disagreeing with that!

The principle involved is, "WHY is it out of whack?"

Unlike the "out of whack" 2008 CJ Mustang horsepower factor, since Cadillac (as you said) obviously doesn't want to "own" Stock Eliminator, the reason for that absurd Cadillac factor is the grievous ignorance of the person or persons in charge of assigning numbers to any and all combinations, even the strange and very strange ones, like this (a Cadillac, utilizing an Oldsmobile engine, with an induction system that never came on an Oldsmobile.) Not easy, perhaps, to assign an accurate factor to such a weirdo assortment of parts, but I don't think the "mistake" (ultra-low factor) was deliberate; more like born of ignorance. I'd bet that my assumption would be agreed with by a lot of folks on this BB.

The CJ factor didn't come about though ignorance at all; it was an engineered piece of statistical gamesmanship, and NHRA was obviously, a willing player in the exercise.

THAT is the reason people are not all over Bob Shaw's erroneous factor, while jumping on the Mustangs with both feet. When you look at the origins of the numbrs in question, they are obviously apples/oranges.

Collusion between a giant auto manufacturer and the NHRA, whether real or imagined, is just fodder for the grist mill that is this (and other) forums. Maybe it's just somebody's pipe dream, but if it walks like duck.... you know the rest!

[kfickler]

Evan’s argument is interesting, primarily because it brings up an interesting dichotomy in class racing.

Bob’s 32-year-old combination sat ignored in the classification guide by apparently all but Bob for quite some time. And while ex-Bob Shaw #1 qualifiers would make for an entertaining 3 round eliminator, the impressive performances do not spawn similar entries. For good reason, nobody accuses Bob of cheating, and most, if not all of the people that compete against Bob offer congratulations and wonder what the next few combinations might be. The reality is that we all have access to the classification guide, but a few courageous souls study the pages most of us don’t read, and study them with a lot of imagination.

In many respects, rather than perfect a particular combination, Bob has found a couple classes in which to introduce a better combination - repeatedly. Are some of the combos classified improperly? The answer is yes, but we don’t know that until racers like Bob show us.

Yeah, the Cadillac is fast, but so was the Capri, the Caprice, the Cruck, and everything else Bob brought to the starting line.

Kinda cool in my opinion.

Kyle Fickler

[Evan Smith]

Dedman,

You are correct on all accounts, but the end result is still the same, which is that racers like Ed F., who have worked hard for years will get whipped up on and no one seems to care. Whether Ed cares or not and congratulates Bob Shaw for his efforts doesn't make it right. I'm done beating this dead horse, I simply wanted to make a point and I think I've done that. There will always be combinations that are better than others. If a racer's sole purpose it to win Class than find an empty class, work harder, or build the best combination for that class.

Evan

[Bruce Noland]

Another Red herring. One lonely old Caddy without an OEM backer will never have the impact of the new CJ's and Mopars. Not even close to a legitimate comparison.

The worst part about this whole mess is that nhra has made some serious changes to Stock and Super Stock without saying one word. There is no leadership coming from Glendora. They had the good sense to separate the injected cars years ago, until they were properly vetted, but now they have thrown what little conscious they had out the window.

Evan,
It has been very interesting to watch you public comments about the new Cj's evolve since the Factory Experimental thread. In the FX thread you posted comments about cautioning the Ford guys. You told them not to run fast right off the bat because it would look bad and cause resentment. I believe the word you used was not to run a ringer. Then in a later thread you became very comfortable with the new CJ's in Stock. Of course, that is after they had gained entry into Stock by running at Pomona. And now you are out here at every oportunity to defend them and to put up any little piece of evidence to support your argument. Comparing one old Caddy to what the OEM's are doing is not going to convince any of us. IHRA has it right and and nhra has it wrong. OEM's have all the clout with nhra and all we have is our devalued race cars. It's easy right now, for the new car guys, but let's see how this story plays out.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

Dedman,

You are correct on all accounts, but the end result is still the same, which is that racers like Ed F., who have worked hard for years will get whipped up on and no one seems to care. Whether Ed cares or not and congratulates Bob Shaw for his efforts doesn't make it right. I'm done beating this dead horse, I simply wanted to make a point and I think I've done that. There will always be combinations that are better than others. If a racer's sole purpose it to win Class than find an empty class, work harder, or build the best combination for that class.

Evan

What will you do when/if NHRA, IHRA, or Alex's Class Nationals deal combines stick and automatic and/or goes to full pound breaks in combination to cut down on the number of classes ? Theres not a R or T class car in the country that can run the Caddy's times. Just a thought. To get any class win money back some classes will have to go away or be combined. Some how cut down on the number of seperate classes. Everyone who enters cannot be a class winner. The "Cream" has to rise to the top. My 3 1/2 cents worth.
P.S. In response to Bruce Nolands thread by having so many seperate classes like IHRA has right now just turns the eliminator into a bracket race. How many heads up runs are documented during IHRA events ? Not many ! Remember, the fans need to see a better show to justify the sportsman races. Another nickles worth.