1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:

ss wannabee · 02-10-2009, 04:57 PM

Trying to figure out for my buddy and can't seem to find info....... 1. Was the 409 engine introduced initially or sometime during the model year? Any idea of what month?

2. Wasn't the 409hp (2x4bbl) engine available in the 1961 year, perhaps late? I'm talking about ordering a car with the engine not buying it at the parts counter. Most Internet sites I've searched list 360hp (1x4bbl) only. I recall a NHRA legal 1961 Impala hardtop racing in D/S during the '71 season with the 409hp engine and as many here will recall, rules were a bit tighter and cars HAD to exist then....NOT like today! Maybe 409hp was over the parts counter (at the time), and ALLOWED by NHRA in Stock? I know that 409hp was production in 1962.

3. If 409hp came in production late (1961), any idea how many 409hp cars built? Also, anybody know how many 1961 Super Sport 409 cars built? Total 1961 SS production was 453....many were 348 but?? Also, appears to be only 142 cars built with the 409 engine that year......in various body styles....pretty rare indeed!

Dick Kirkpatrick · 02-10-2009, 07:15 PM

I tried to order a 409 chev in February of 61
The engine was available only in the SS model, 360 HP only
They were all gone when I was ordering.
I got a 350 HP 348 instead

You could not order a 409/409 from the factory in 1961
By early summer, GM had released the dual quad set up over the counter only.
Guys like Nicholson got them but could not run in SS or AS
A new class was introduced for special equipment cars from the big three
It was called "X" Stock, if I remember correctly.

Chuck Norton · 02-10-2009, 08:35 PM

I recall that Nicholson had a class designation something like OSS (Optional Super Stock) on his car out here in the fall of 1961.

c

Dick Kirkpatrick · 02-10-2009, 08:47 PM

I stand corrected, OSS is what it was.

Greg Reimer 7376 · 02-10-2009, 09:00 PM

Hi.Best of my knowledge and from my collection of facts re:W motors, for some reason,NHRA accepted the '62 409 heads and intakes on the '61 cars. Only around 540 '61 Chevys came with 360 horse 409's,this being all models included in the tally.The 360 horse engine was somewhat different in that all 8 pistons were identical,having a machined relief across the whole top where the intake valves wouldn't hit.This engine had small port heads with 3/8" dia. pushrods. I don't offhand have the casting numbers of the heads, and the intake was the same as the hi-po 348 aluminum high rise with a rather large AFB on it.It had a mechanical lifter camshaft with quite a bit of duration,but about .440" lift.The '62 409 had large port heads,casting number 3830690,the dual four barrel intake ended in part number 881,the front carb was #3361 with no idle mixture screws.The rear carb was #3362 and all idle speed and mixture adjustments were carried out on it. Quite a few of these engines had the Delco 1110919 dual point distributor with the dual window distributor cap.The '62-'65 hi-po pistons were all forged and had both right hand and left hand valve reliefs for the intake valve. The '61 heads had 2.08" intakes,1.72" exhausts.The later heads had 2.19"dia.intakes and 1.72" exhausts as well. The 409 horse top end was available as a "service package" mid year in '61,probably that secured it's legality. Interestingly enough,the two piece intake and the hi-po Z-11 heads were available mid year '62 as "service package" updates for the 409 in the 62 Chevies.I understood there was a huge performance increase with these-I never had any to try out for sure. Edelbrock has reproduced the 409 cylinder head and the dual four barrel intake,but it's not exactly like the original. In fact,it looks better. Someone needs to give it a try and report back. Let us know how this progresses.

Greg Reimer 7376 · 02-10-2009, 09:38 PM

Correction to last post- only 142 '61 360 horse 409's were produced in Impala SS's. Also the '62 409 came from the factory with a better cam with OEM part number ending with 930. The later engines and the '63 engines had camshaft part# 3830690. It had around .511" lift and quite a bit of duration. The only difference between a '62 409 horse and a '63 425 horse engine were the exhaust manifolds, the chrome valve covers, and the chrome air cleaner and dip stick handle. Also, the single four barrel 380 horse engine was identical to the 409 horse except for the intake and carb.Heads,cam,etc.were the exact same. Wouldn't it be great to see a few of these come back?

ss wannabee · 02-11-2009, 10:02 AM

Wow, thanks guys! Dick, did you order a Super Sport and could you tell me a little about the car? Did you ever take it to the track? Greg, thanks for your info as well. Weren't you the president of the National 409 club a few years ago? I was a member of the Midwest 409 club back in the early '80's. Didn't have the car, but always wanted one! Now, it's too late.............

Greg Reimer 7376 · 02-11-2009, 08:40 PM

Yes,sswannabe, that was me. I wrote the newsletter for the 409 Chevy Club of America back then.I don't know where the National name came from,however.I still have one complete 409 engine,carbs to pan in the garage, still have a 12 bolt modified to fit one of those early cars,although I sold my car 10 years ago to Mitch in San Diego.He still runs it. It seemed like old times writing that post yesterday,in fact, all that came from memory. Seems like yesterday we raced at Orange County, read Super Chevy, and frequently visited with Doug Marion.Whatever became of Bob Goss and the Midwest club? I conversed with him on occasion,too.

bill dedman · 02-12-2009, 12:59 AM

Since these seems to be several guys reading this that have in-depth knowledge about these cars, I have a question or two that someone might can answer.

The Z-11 package was so much faster than the 425/409 that preceded it, I have often wondered why G.M. didn't find a way to get that motor into a few '64 cars... they seemed to just fold up after the front-office edict bannning racing.... and it was such a shame because tha Z-11 engine seemed to me to be about as good on a specific output basis, as the canted valve 396/427 that followed. It was a powerhouse!

And, in view of the above, I think it's a shame that if the aftermarket is going to reproduce cylinder heads, that they don't reproduce the GOOD ones (the Z-11's) an an intake manifold "package" along with it.

I am one of what I'l bet are more than just a few Mopar guys who would make the switch to Bow Ties if I could get my hands on a set of ALUMINUM 1963 Z-11 replica heads and intake. Those motors would haul those full-size '63 Impalas deep into the 11's, weighing upwards of 3,500 pounds...

I watched Bill Heilscher's ("FRIENDLY? CHEVROLET") white, 1963 Z-11 annihilate about 20 fast Mopar Stage II and III 426 Wedge cars at "Dodge Day" in Little Rock, one weekend in '63. Somebody had paid him $50.00 to come up from Dallas and bring his weapon of choice.... LOL! He drove it like he was trying to break it... but, never did.

Anyway, the Z-11's would be awesome if somebody could find a way to make parts available so they could be brought back without needing half of Fort Knox to get it done...

Thanks for listening.

Bill

X-TECH MAN · 02-12-2009, 08:48 AM

I agree with Bill Dedman....I would buid a Z-11 clone for nostalgia racing if we could get Alum. heads and the 2 piece intake from someplace like Edelbrock. Greg Reimer is right on the money for the most part about the 409's. 142 SS Impalas were assembly line built with the 360 HP version. Even the racing greats such as Dyno Don Nicholson (Impala), Frank Sanders (Biscayne) and Dave strickler (Biscayne) started with 348/350 HP cars then switched engines for the Winter Nationals of that year. These were "left over" engines from the Daytona 500 of 1961 that were shipped to any racer who had connections with the factory or a name. The early engines were thin (cylinder walls) and blew up a lot during the 500 but worked OK for drag racing.The 409's were low RPM torque engines (6000 or so) as compared to the later big block version (396/427/454). They didnt breath well at higher RPMs. Thats most likely the reason they didnt use them in 1964, 1965 except for street use. The 409 was gone after half of the model run in 1965.

02-10-2009, 04:57 PM	#1
ss wannabee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 663 Likes: 0 Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts	1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: Trying to figure out for my buddy and can't seem to find info....... 1. Was the 409 engine introduced initially or sometime during the model year? Any idea of what month? 2. Wasn't the 409hp (2x4bbl) engine available in the 1961 year, perhaps late? I'm talking about ordering a car with the engine not buying it at the parts counter. Most Internet sites I've searched list 360hp (1x4bbl) only. I recall a NHRA legal 1961 Impala hardtop racing in D/S during the '71 season with the 409hp engine and as many here will recall, rules were a bit tighter and cars HAD to exist then....NOT like today! Maybe 409hp was over the parts counter (at the time), and ALLOWED by NHRA in Stock? I know that 409hp was production in 1962. 3. If 409hp came in production late (1961), any idea how many 409hp cars built? Also, anybody know how many 1961 Super Sport 409 cars built? Total 1961 SS production was 453....many were 348 but?? Also, appears to be only 142 cars built with the 409 engine that year......in various body styles....pretty rare indeed!

02-10-2009, 07:15 PM	#2
Dick Kirkpatrick Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Carlise, Ontario, Canada Posts: 73 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: I tried to order a 409 chev in February of 61 The engine was available only in the SS model, 360 HP only They were all gone when I was ordering. I got a 350 HP 348 instead You could not order a 409/409 from the factory in 1961 By early summer, GM had released the dual quad set up over the counter only. Guys like Nicholson got them but could not run in SS or AS A new class was introduced for special equipment cars from the big three It was called "X" Stock, if I remember correctly. __________________ Dick Kirkpatrick 3033 SS

02-10-2009, 08:47 PM	#4
Dick Kirkpatrick Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Carlise, Ontario, Canada Posts: 73 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: I stand corrected, OSS is what it was. __________________ Dick Kirkpatrick 3033 SS

02-10-2009, 09:00 PM	#5
Greg Reimer 7376 VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Glendora,Calif. Posts: 1,137 Likes: 172 Liked 719 Times in 220 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: Hi.Best of my knowledge and from my collection of facts re:W motors, for some reason,NHRA accepted the '62 409 heads and intakes on the '61 cars. Only around 540 '61 Chevys came with 360 horse 409's,this being all models included in the tally.The 360 horse engine was somewhat different in that all 8 pistons were identical,having a machined relief across the whole top where the intake valves wouldn't hit.This engine had small port heads with 3/8" dia. pushrods. I don't offhand have the casting numbers of the heads, and the intake was the same as the hi-po 348 aluminum high rise with a rather large AFB on it.It had a mechanical lifter camshaft with quite a bit of duration,but about .440" lift.The '62 409 had large port heads,casting number 3830690,the dual four barrel intake ended in part number 881,the front carb was #3361 with no idle mixture screws.The rear carb was #3362 and all idle speed and mixture adjustments were carried out on it. Quite a few of these engines had the Delco 1110919 dual point distributor with the dual window distributor cap.The '62-'65 hi-po pistons were all forged and had both right hand and left hand valve reliefs for the intake valve. The '61 heads had 2.08" intakes,1.72" exhausts.The later heads had 2.19"dia.intakes and 1.72" exhausts as well. The 409 horse top end was available as a "service package" mid year in '61,probably that secured it's legality. Interestingly enough,the two piece intake and the hi-po Z-11 heads were available mid year '62 as "service package" updates for the 409 in the 62 Chevies.I understood there was a huge performance increase with these-I never had any to try out for sure. Edelbrock has reproduced the 409 cylinder head and the dual four barrel intake,but it's not exactly like the original. In fact,it looks better. Someone needs to give it a try and report back. Let us know how this progresses.

02-10-2009, 09:38 PM	#6
Greg Reimer 7376 VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Glendora,Calif. Posts: 1,137 Likes: 172 Liked 719 Times in 220 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: Correction to last post- only 142 '61 360 horse 409's were produced in Impala SS's. Also the '62 409 came from the factory with a better cam with OEM part number ending with 930. The later engines and the '63 engines had camshaft part# 3830690. It had around .511" lift and quite a bit of duration. The only difference between a '62 409 horse and a '63 425 horse engine were the exhaust manifolds, the chrome valve covers, and the chrome air cleaner and dip stick handle. Also, the single four barrel 380 horse engine was identical to the 409 horse except for the intake and carb.Heads,cam,etc.were the exact same. Wouldn't it be great to see a few of these come back?

02-10-2009, 08:35 PM	#3
Chuck Norton Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Covina, CA Posts: 474 Likes: 109 Liked 89 Times in 19 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: I recall that Nicholson had a class designation something like OSS (Optional Super Stock) on his car out here in the fall of 1961. c

02-11-2009, 10:02 AM	#7
ss wannabee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 663 Likes: 0 Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: Wow, thanks guys! Dick, did you order a Super Sport and could you tell me a little about the car? Did you ever take it to the track? Greg, thanks for your info as well. Weren't you the president of the National 409 club a few years ago? I was a member of the Midwest 409 club back in the early '80's. Didn't have the car, but always wanted one! Now, it's too late.............

02-11-2009, 08:40 PM	#8
Greg Reimer 7376 VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Glendora,Calif. Posts: 1,137 Likes: 172 Liked 719 Times in 220 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: Yes,sswannabe, that was me. I wrote the newsletter for the 409 Chevy Club of America back then.I don't know where the National name came from,however.I still have one complete 409 engine,carbs to pan in the garage, still have a 12 bolt modified to fit one of those early cars,although I sold my car 10 years ago to Mitch in San Diego.He still runs it. It seemed like old times writing that post yesterday,in fact, all that came from memory. Seems like yesterday we raced at Orange County, read Super Chevy, and frequently visited with Doug Marion.Whatever became of Bob Goss and the Midwest club? I conversed with him on occasion,too.

02-12-2009, 12:59 AM	#9
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: Since these seems to be several guys reading this that have in-depth knowledge about these cars, I have a question or two that someone might can answer. The Z-11 package was so much faster than the 425/409 that preceded it, I have often wondered why G.M. didn't find a way to get that motor into a few '64 cars... they seemed to just fold up after the front-office edict bannning racing.... and it was such a shame because tha Z-11 engine seemed to me to be about as good on a specific output basis, as the canted valve 396/427 that followed. It was a powerhouse! And, in view of the above, I think it's a shame that if the aftermarket is going to reproduce cylinder heads, that they don't reproduce the GOOD ones (the Z-11's) an an intake manifold "package" along with it. I am one of what I'l bet are more than just a few Mopar guys who would make the switch to Bow Ties if I could get my hands on a set of ALUMINUM 1963 Z-11 replica heads and intake. Those motors would haul those full-size '63 Impalas deep into the 11's, weighing upwards of 3,500 pounds... I watched Bill Heilscher's ("FRIENDLY? CHEVROLET") white, 1963 Z-11 annihilate about 20 fast Mopar Stage II and III 426 Wedge cars at "Dodge Day" in Little Rock, one weekend in '63. Somebody had paid him $50.00 to come up from Dallas and bring his weapon of choice.... LOL! He drove it like he was trying to break it... but, never did. Anyway, the Z-11's would be awesome if somebody could find a way to make parts available so they could be brought back without needing half of Fort Knox to get it done... Thanks for listening. Bill __________________ Bill

02-12-2009, 08:48 AM	#10
X-TECH MAN Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lake Placid, Florida Posts: 3,203 Likes: 1,047 Liked 235 Times in 110 Posts	Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted: I agree with Bill Dedman....I would buid a Z-11 clone for nostalgia racing if we could get Alum. heads and the 2 piece intake from someplace like Edelbrock. Greg Reimer is right on the money for the most part about the 409's. 142 SS Impalas were assembly line built with the 360 HP version. Even the racing greats such as Dyno Don Nicholson (Impala), Frank Sanders (Biscayne) and Dave strickler (Biscayne) started with 348/350 HP cars then switched engines for the Winter Nationals of that year. These were "left over" engines from the Daytona 500 of 1961 that were shipped to any racer who had connections with the factory or a name. The early engines were thin (cylinder walls) and blew up a lot during the 500 but worked OK for drag racing.The 409's were low RPM torque engines (6000 or so) as compared to the later big block version (396/427/454). They didnt breath well at higher RPMs. Thats most likely the reason they didnt use them in 1964, 1965 except for street use. The 409 was gone after half of the model run in 1965.