Stock and the late models, a solution.

[Ken Miele]

Below is a list of ideas and proposals on how to join the old with the new and still make Stock a great place to race.

The ideas below are not all mine, they come from many racers.

I would like to here more input and suggestions. Please do not turn this thread into a NHRA bash. I would like to here constructive ideas. I would also like to keep this thread civil, if your going to respond in a discourtesy way please do not post.


1: New classes specifically for late model performance vehicles.

2: Proposed name, Late Model (LM).

3: Classes are for 2005 and newer vehicles. Designed to allow late model cars to advertise real horsepower levels and compete with one another while keeping the older cars relevant in the Eliminator.

4: Bringing factories into the sport to showcase what they sell.

5: Make it cheaper and easier to build fast stockers from street cars. Parts are readily available and a 2005 Mustang can be had for a little more than $10k.

6:Real horsepower ratings (2011 Mustang is 412hp, 2010 is 315hp, V8 Camaro is 435hp I think, etc.)

7: Inclusion cars like CJ's and DP's can race in Late Model, but with horsepower factored higher. Instead of 400hp say 600hp. The rating would be more realistic, the way it would be if you bought them as crate engines from their catalogs.

8: No "natural" class - let people put the cars at the weight they want for their engine hp

9: No automatic class. Sticks carry an added 50lbs, but they all are the same class.

10: Any auto trans allowed. The Jerico is basically a Ford toploader and everyone runs it so why not let Ford or Chrysler guys run a Turbo 400? The bellhousing are readily available and more than half the internals on the auto transmissions aren't stock anyway or use another brand.

11: Any custom piston allowed as long at is measures correctly. Seems silly if everyone is buying aftermarket pistons to worry about a list. If it measures correct then it's good.

New Class Ideas:

Lighter weight breaks so cars are safer and more relevant to what's on the showroom (Corvette has a 3200lbs 638hp car from the factory)
ALM - 5lbs
BLM - 5.75lbs
CLM - 6.50lbs
DLM - 7.25lbs
ELM - 8lbs
FLM - 8.75lbs
GLM - 9.50lbs

LM cars still have to run factory suspension and have limit on cam lift. These are not SS cars. Just a natural evolution of stockers to keep up with the times and availability of parts. Why should we pay the same amount of money for an inferior part?

The biggest problem with this is that it adds more classes. There are too many already. There hardly any heads up runs in the eliminator and many classes during runoffs are either unopposed or
have no competitors.

I would propose changing the weight steps between classes. .75lbs steps where they are currently .5lbs, and 1.5lbs steps where they are currently 1lbs. There should be fewer classes than there are now even adding the LM classes.

Another idea is crate engines. This could really keep costs down and make parts easy to find. The manufacturers have crate engines that are equal power for their circle track programs.

This could be a Super Stock item but in the spirit of keeping costs down Stock seems like a better fit. We'd have to factor the horsepower differently so they are competitive but this could jump start some cars where parts are expensive or hard to find as well as allow cars that are dialed in to get engines capable of making them faster for higher classes. The crate engines would be just like the car came from the factory with that engine and could go into any like make body.

These ideas allow older cars to stay out there and be competitive while at the same time allowing the new cars to flourish. If we can get corporate support and young people interested in racing affordably, we can make Stock and Super Stock like it was in it's prime.

Thanks for everyone's time.

[Wayne Kerr]

Yo Ken,
2 snaps up!
You need to talk to Mike Pustelny, you two are on the same page. Mike's deal was called "American Muscle".

See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

[Pistol Pete]

Ken

If you look at my post from page 4 "just a thought for stock elim." I combined the sticks
with the automatics & brought the class count down to 34 from 51 classes.
Most index's ( stick & auto ) are .05 or a tenth of a second different.

I agree to going with your new Late Model class, but disagree to a crate motor class.

Less classes would mean more heads-up runs, which would be cool for racers & fans i think.

If you wanted to add a couple of classes i would like to see Top & JR. Stock come back
to the eliminator.

[Robert Swartz]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Ken


I agree to going with your new Late Model class, but disagree to a crate motor class.

Less classes would mean more heads-up runs, which would be cool for racers & fans i think.

Why the objection to crate motors? They have specifications just like any other engine. They could easily be blended into the class structure, just force anyone running a crate motor to declare it as such. That way, real simple, I go to the teardown barn, the tech inspectors know what spec sheet they need to pull.

[Lew Silverman]

Your proposal makes a lot of sense, Ken, but it still puts the OEM in the drivers seat (pun intended!) to publish a realistic HP figure to establish a baseline. Until that happens, nothing is going to change the inequities we now have. I have always had a problem with how the Classification Guide is put together. The factory decides what model/engine combination is listed. There are whole years that no models are published. Why? If the OEM builds it, I should be able to race it! That would make more combination's available, and the engines would not need to be rated differently in two very similar body styles. What class would a CTS-V station wagon fit in?

This problem isn't going away anytime soon, sad to say! But as long as we can suggest alternatives, there's still hope!!

Lew

"Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one else is looking!"

[Ed Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Ken Miele

Below is a list of ideas and proposals on how to join the old with the new and still make Stock a great place to race.

The ideas below are not all mine, they come from many racers.

I would like to here more input and suggestions. Please do not turn this thread into a NHRA bash. I would like to here constructive ideas. I would also like to keep this thread civil, if your going to respond in a discourtesy way please do not post.


1: New classes specifically for late model performance vehicles.

2: Proposed name, Late Model (LM).

3: Classes are for 2005 and newer vehicles. Designed to allow late model cars to advertise real horsepower levels and compete with one another while keeping the older cars relevant in the Eliminator.

4: Bringing factories into the sport to showcase what they sell.

5: Make it cheaper and easier to build fast stockers from street cars. Parts are readily available and a 2005 Mustang can be had for a little more than $10k.

6:Real horsepower ratings (2011 Mustang is 412hp, 2010 is 315hp, V8 Camaro is 435hp I think, etc.)

7: Inclusion cars like CJ's and DP's can race in Late Model, but with horsepower factored higher. Instead of 400hp say 600hp. The rating would be more realistic, the way it would be if you bought them as crate engines from their catalogs.

8: No "natural" class - let people put the cars at the weight they want for their engine hp

9: No automatic class. Sticks carry an added 50lbs, but they all are the same class.

10: Any auto trans allowed. The Jerico is basically a Ford toploader and everyone runs it so why not let Ford or Chrysler guys run a Turbo 400? The bellhousing are readily available and more than half the internals on the auto transmissions aren't stock anyway or use another brand.

11: Any custom piston allowed as long at is measures correctly. Seems silly if everyone is buying aftermarket pistons to worry about a list. If it measures correct then it's good.

New Class Ideas:

Lighter weight breaks so cars are safer and more relevant to what's on the showroom (Corvette has a 3200lbs 638hp car from the factory)
ALM - 5lbs
BLM - 5.75lbs
CLM - 6.50lbs
DLM - 7.25lbs
ELM - 8lbs
FLM - 8.75lbs
GLM - 9.50lbs

LM cars still have to run factory suspension and have limit on cam lift. These are not SS cars. Just a natural evolution of stockers to keep up with the times and availability of parts. Why should we pay the same amount of money for an inferior part?

The biggest problem with this is that it adds more classes. There are too many already. There hardly any heads up runs in the eliminator and many classes during runoffs are either unopposed or
have no competitors.

I would propose changing the weight steps between classes. .75lbs steps where they are currently .5lbs, and 1.5lbs steps where they are currently 1lbs. There should be fewer classes than there are now even adding the LM classes.

Another idea is crate engines. This could really keep costs down and make parts easy to find. The manufacturers have crate engines that are equal power for their circle track programs.

This could be a Super Stock item but in the spirit of keeping costs down Stock seems like a better fit. We'd have to factor the horsepower differently so they are competitive but this could jump start some cars where parts are expensive or hard to find as well as allow cars that are dialed in to get engines capable of making them faster for higher classes. The crate engines would be just like the car came from the factory with that engine and could go into any like make body.

These ideas allow older cars to stay out there and be competitive while at the same time allowing the new cars to flourish. If we can get corporate support and young people interested in racing affordably, we can make Stock and Super Stock like it was in it's prime.

Thanks for everyone's time.

Ken alot of good ideas. The days of automatic cars needing a weight break over sticks are gone. Most records are faster in automatic than stick cars. Automatics have come along way and are very fast. Jeff Dona went 9.54 I believe in HA a week or so ago in an auto. I need to go back to work.This is the first time someone has proposed the LM class. Sounds good, but as you said more classes. Do you think NHRA wants to keep up with more classes. Ed

[Daran Summerton]

The easy fix is no heads up in the eliminator. If folks wish to spend $150,000 on a cupcake for $200 and a trophy for class well then God bless em. I'm not bashing but FI classes were deleted a couple years ago and class win payout remains unchanged. Hence, the poor car counts. I'm for combining sticks and autos with a drastic purse adjustment. Adding classes has already failed in the past. Division 2 is looking dismal and there doesn't appear to be any incentive to get racers excited about next year. When there is only 25 Stockers in the lanes the new cars really don't bother most unless you have a heads up. I think purse should be adjusted before classes are.

[MikeFicacci]

No matter what ends up happening or not happening with the new cars, I think the worst potential outcome would be to do away with heads-up racing. As much as getting smacked by a half second by a "new car" sucks, the heads-up race is really what separates us from the rest of the "bracket" world.

Think about it. Doing away with heads up racing basically means doing away with fuel check, scales, cylinder head rules, rotating assembly weights, matching engine/body, factory interiors, factory-style suspensions, etc.

I think the horsepower factors on the new cars is crap just like most people and someone running .5 to 1 second faster than the crowd with a piece that is brand new is crap. Saying that though, I would rather get smacked by these new cars for the next 100 years than to do away with heads up racing with the strict rules that we live by. If that happens, I'm out and I'm sure a large percentage of people would be also.

[Jimi B]

Or just factor the cars properly...

I like some of the new ideas, but I also like the idea of the newer cars vs older cars...

[Don Himes]

I agree with Jim Carter---100%!!!!! They should be classed F/X or L/M or whatever you want, but they are not stockers!!!!!!