If you like guns

[Jim Wahl]

Eddie, no offence but the way you think is exactly what they are hoping we all will think like. However those of us who know the government can not be trusted to do anything openly and honestly are the ones who they fear the most. Just like the quote you posted from the Japanese emperor. People who do not take them at their word and know there are always ulterior motives. The way Art described it is almost exactly the way it happened in Australia. Don't believe me? Ask an Australian. I have a very good Australian racer friend who comes the the US and stays with me every other year. The first thing he wants to do is go to the shooting range and shoot some of my guns. He had a 12G shotgun once, they took it from him. A neighbor turned him in for having a Ruger .22 pistol, they came to his house and searched and found it and he was in jail for two weeks, almost lost his job and house because of it. Cost him $10,000 in fines and court costs. He lives in South Australia. They never though it could happen there either. Nope, I don't trust them, none of them. I will be one of those guys hiding behind a blade of grass! They will never take my gun while I am still alive, my forefathers said I have the right to bare arms and I believe them! Jim

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[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by art leong

Jim you are missing the point. No un soldier or cop is going to kick your door in. This thing is very subtle. It will start with all guns of any kind being registered. Some states have that already. Then you will have to prove how and when you use them individually. They will make you turn in the excess (you won't need 20 guns to hunt for a deer etc.) Then little by little they will ban certain types of guns.(you don't need a Judge pistol to shoot targets.) Then there won't be that many legal guns, first they will tax the hell out of them then they will take the rest away. They will do this under the guise of complying with the un.
Anyone on here the fishes in saltwater will know about regulation creep. They start off with a bag and size limit everyone can live with. Then they reduce the numbers till you can't keep any.

Art,

I know what you mean about regulations creeping up on you but there are millions of guns out there that are not registered and no one in their right mind will voluntarily go and tell the govt that they have one. I have several guns, some the state knows about, some they don't. If the state or govt asks to register them then I don't have any! Prove they are in my possession ! Come to the house and I'll hide them. You can't take what you don't know about or can't find!

JimR

[Jim Wahl]

Originally Posted by treessavoy

Art,

I know what you mean about regulations creeping up on you but there are millions of guns out there that are not registered and no one in their right mind will voluntarily go and tell the govt that they have one. I have several guns, some the state knows about, some they don't. If the state or govt asks to register them then I don't have any! Prove they are in my possession ! Come to the house and I'll hide them. You can't take what you don't know about or can't find!

JimR

Guns? What guns? Jim


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[Dennis P Chapman]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

Guns? What guns? Jim


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x2

[goinbroke2]

OK, a "less inflamatory" response.....

Couple of years ago the gun registry went into effect in Canada. It's purpose was to register all weapons so police would know if they are responding to a house with weapons or not. Then it morphed into what was and wasn't allowed and what wasn't grew.
Here's what happen to my cousin in N.B.;
My cousin had probably a dozen rifles for hunting. Two of them were single or semi auto or whatever rifles based on the ar-15. He lives in the "back woods" and was never in trouble with the law. He hunts for probably half his meat if not more.
Police showed up one day and asked his wife to see his weapons (these two in particular). She wouldn't let them in and called John who was only 10 minutes away. He came home, produced the legally obtained/owned/registered rifles. They said they were now considered illegal weapons and confiscated them. If he resisted, they would arrest him. THIS WAS REPEATED MANY TIMES. This was the RCMP who confiscated his rifles which were 4-5 years old and cost him a couple thousand bucks. It was outside Hampton N.B. not exactly a "hotbed of crime" No he was not compensated, nobody he called would listen. If he has an ar-15 (I'm pretty sure that's what it was) then it's on the illegal list and he has no recourse, period.

The gun registry was abolished by the conservatives but don't ever expect anybody who knows my cousin or his story to ever register a weapon again. (if the registry was ever brought back again!)

Again, what people on here are concerned with, HAS happened in other western countries that are mirrors of the US. (Canada,Australia,etc) Don't be so arrogant to think "but we're Americans, WE wouldn't do this or that"
NOBODY foresaw hardworking entreprenuial Americans to be happy to lay around and collect a free cheque from the gov either...but what is the % who don't pay taxes? How many are givers and how many are takers? Which direction is it trending?

It's called social engineering and yes the gov does it all the time on various things. (what's the tax rate on alcohol and tobacco and why)?

[Eddies66]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

Eddie, no offence but the way you think is exactly what they are hoping we all will think like. However those of us who know the government can not be trusted to do anything openly and honestly are the ones who they fear the most. Just like the quote you posted from the Japanese emperor. People who do not take them at their word and know there are always ulterior motives. The way Art described it is almost exactly the way it happened in Australia. Don't believe me? Ask an Australian. I have a very good Australian racer friend who comes the the US and stays with me every other year. The first thing he wants to do is go to the shooting range and shoot some of my guns. He had a 12G shotgun once, they took it from him. A neighbor turned him in for having a Ruger .22 pistol, they came to his house and searched and found it and he was in jail for two weeks, almost lost his job and house because of it. Cost him $10,000 in fines and court costs. He lives in South Australia. They never though it could happen there either. Nope, I don't trust them, none of them. I will be one of those guys hiding behind a blade of grass! They will never take my gun while I am still alive, my forefathers said I have the right to bare arms and I believe them! Jim

.

Jim/Art, I am attempting to explain the treaty, the Constitution and the Court case that sets the ground rules for procedure as I see it. I understand your mistrust of the government clowns we have put in office with "special trust and confidence". These are just two different issues. With regards to the right to bears arms...the government or any individual does not have the right to secure any of my possessions, quarter troops or illegally search my place of residence. I will defend these inalienable rights with my life.

Do I have weapons? There is only two ways to know that: as a guest with an interest or as an intruder. Both will depart with the same knowledge.

[art leong]

Originally Posted by treessavoy

Art,

I know what you mean about regulations creeping up on you but there are millions of guns out there that are not registered and no one in their right mind will voluntarily go and tell the govt that they have one. I have several guns, some the state knows about, some they don't. If the state or govt asks to register them then I don't have any! Prove they are in my possession ! Come to the house and I'll hide them. You can't take what you don't know about or can't find!

JimR

They can do it very simple first they collect the ones they know about. Then they impose big fines and or mandatory jail time. How many law abiding citizens will chance that? I came from gun free NYC and very few law abiding people have guns there. It's not worth the risk of knowing you are going to jail if caught with it.
As far as coming to your house they can do it anytime they want. They don't need a warrant (are you surprized?) . All they have to do is use a game warden. They are allowed to search personal property without a warrant. They can come into your house or car at will.

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Eddies66

Jim/Art, I am attempting to explain the treaty, the Constitution and the Court case that sets the ground rules for procedure as I see it. I understand your mistrust of the government clowns we have put in office with "special trust and confidence". These are just two different issues. With regards to the right to bears arms...the government or any individual does not have the right to secure any of my possessions, quarter troops or illegally search my place of residence. I will defend these inalienable rights with my life.

Do I have weapons? There is only two ways to know that: as a guest with an interest or as an intruder. Both will depart with the same knowledge.

What I am getting at is the treaty opens the door to complete gun registration for everyone.
You obviously have never dealt with a game warden. Look up their search and seizure laws. Warrantless search and seizure.

[Eddies66]

Originally Posted by art leong

You obviously have never dealt with a game warden. Look up their search and seizure laws. Warrantless search and seizure.

No, I don't deal with Game Wardens because I have a safe record with them and give them no reason to question my ability to hunt safely.

[Eddies66]

Here is a statement from the US Fish and Wildlife service regarding warrantless searches:

The exclusionary rule says that evidence Federal or State officers obtain by unreasonable (illegal) searches and seizures cannot be introduced in a criminal proceeding against the defendant.

A. Extent of Exclusions. Generally, all improperly obtained evidence is excluded. This includes all evidence obtained by exploiting improperly obtained evidence (i.e., “fruit of the poisonous tree”). The fruit is any information, object, or testimony that officers uncover or obtain, directly or indirectly, through the illegally seized evidence—items and information that officers would not have obtained if not for the initial illegally obtained evidence.

B. Standing. Because the exclusionary rule is an attempt to effectuate the guarantees of the Fourth Amendment, only defendants whose Fourth Amendment rights have been violated are permitted to benefit from the rule’s protections. Courts have found that, “A person who is aggrieved by an illegal search and seizure only through the introduction of damaging evidence secured by a search of a third person’s premises or property has not had any of his Fourth Amendment rights infringed.” In order to claim the protection of the Fourth Amendment, “a defendant must demonstrate that he personally has an expectation of privacy in the place searched and that his expectation is reasonable . . .”

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department who observes a person engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission or reasonably believes that a person is or has been engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission may inspect: (1) any license, permit, tag, or other document issued by the department and required by this code of a person hunting or catching wildlife resources; (2) any device that may be used to hunt or catch a wildlife resource; (3) any wildlife resource in the person's possession; and (4) the contents of any container or receptacle that is commonly used to store or conceal a wildlife resource. (c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department may inspect any wildlife resource that has been taken by a person and is in plain view of the game warden or other peace officer. (d) Nothing in this section authorizes a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department to conduct a search otherwise authorized by this section: (1) in a person's residence or temporary residence; or (2) on a publicly maintained road or way that is: (A) improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular traffic; (B) open to the public; and (C) distinguishable from a shoulder, berm, or other area not intended for vehicular traffic.