Class versus brackets winning a round

[Matt Welker]

Originally Posted by THE LEGEND

Matt,
You make some good points. HEADS UP is HEADS UP no way around it, but when you put shoe polish on the window it's still a bracket race.

The key is "WHEN", when a class racers puts show polish on his window. Tell me, "WHEN" does a bracket racer take it off his window? I do like your focus, the approach is correct, because as a class racer, it is a matter of "when", because it doesn't happen all the time and there are specific instances when we run a whole race within a race (like class eliminations after qualifying where we don't use it), then later, when it is necessary, we use show polish for those special bracket runs.

Bracket racers are the same to me as guys who race in a heads up only eliminator (pro or sportsman level), they each have a different, SINGLE focus. In S/SS, there is a duality at work and you need both skills (driving and performance) to win (and I'm taking high car count divisions like 1 and 3, no disrespect to the other divisions or those running cars in less populated classes). Sure, you can make it through a race without a heads up run, but it is unlikely a World Champ won't have one or be effected by a heads up run in some manner during a season. (Please don't response that a bracket racer has performance issues/concerns, they have no necessity to get every last ounce of efficiency out of their car within strict limitations that will be verified, and we both have the same consistency issues.)

For me, INDY is the pinnacle for S/SS, you need performance to get in, performance for class, and you also need driving (those bracket skills) for much of the eliminator. Any racer who can put together both the performance and bracket skills together has my attention and respect. When you bracket race, is there a qualified field where some don't make the eliminator? No, oh, must be that performance issue again for class racers....lets just ignore it, it's just a bracket race, right? And, yes, I have been at a divisional with a full field in stock where racers didn't make the field. Yes, we have been to Indy and not had our cars make the eliminator and we don't complain, we work harder on our performance. Why? Because it's not just a bracket race.

I don't look down on a racer who has a single focus (bracket/heads up only), but I do look up to a S/SS racer who can do both with repeated success. Any serious racer/fan has seen what someone like John Shaul (just one example) has done the past two years. Won national events (I think both on the west coast had heads up runs, one with multiple heads up runs), won a divisional event (don't think he had any heads up runs), and many Class wins along the way.

Sorry, but I think it's harder, and I have more respect, for a driver and their team who not only has to complete in a bracket style race, but also must be ready to go from a bracket round to a heads up run and back again. It is hard enough to do one thing well in racing, but S/SS guys have to do two things well and the ability to do both is the challenge in these classes, that's why it isn't "just a bracket race".

I would still show up if only class winners got to race in the eliminator. If that was the case, then I'd give a **** about what NHRA does with the AHFS. It's not, so I'll continue to play that game as well as the ladder game, sometimes avoiding and sometimes seeking, LOL.

[Michael Kilduff]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

What is a 4.50-5.50 car?

Ed,

Chip is referring to fast 1/8 mile bracket cars. I live in the same area as Chip and starting in the mid 80's the cars got too fast for most of the tracks in central and eastern NC as they were built in the late 50's and early 60's, so everything went to half track racing due to lack of shutdown area. Racers started building their cars for 1/8th only and as other new tracks were built or revamped they were designed for 1/8 mile only. Aside from Rockingham I think only Fayetteville has 1/4 mile capability in NC anymore for regular brackets and there are at least 15 tracks I can name in NC alone-all 1/8 mile. One track in Jacksonville tried 1000 ft for a couple of events 10 years ago and car counts were down and racers complained about having to change the gears in their cars, so they went back to the 660. I think one track is only 500 feet or so.

Quite a few rear engine dragsters here locally running 4.20-4.60 and door cars in the 4.70-5.30 et range in the 1/8th.

[JOE ZOOM]

BIG difference between class racing and brackets.Bracket racers get to leave with the big check or cash in hand and class racers have to jump thur hoops to get payed.

joe mocci

[randy wilson]

In perfect air we can run .75 under, in just good air, .6 under. We are not hitters but would quit if it went to just dial in, no tech.

[Dick Butler]

Interesting comments which pretty well point out that Most love the class challenge of making a vehicle with RULES go as quick as possible.
Some point out the weak point of having too many possible classes where yes you can be the worlds fastest but of 3 cars on earth very little hype or recognition. This seems to point out the BAD part of too many classes. A back door comment for combining classes or limited numbers of possible classes. Then at least the 20 guys in the country racing the same combo knows you are good if you win or set the record. Today who knows the names of the record holders? who cares unless its your class.. I only check dragster to see what my competitors ran in their races as a gauge of my performance.
We all see a win as a win but a high % appreciate class wins better. Then there is Jeff who seems to mis understand the poll intent as bringing down class. No it was pointed at showing the challenge of fastest car (of whatever form) drives most S and SS racers. Would making fewer classes and "forcing " a limited kind of cars or combinations add anything? to the greater good? of the Class racing by causing MORE of it? Class at Indy is the only true place enough current cars can enter at one time. What if an event with 80 entries in S or SS had 10 cars per class? Wherever you raced.

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Interesting comments which pretty well point out that Most love the class challenge of making a vehicle with RULES go as quick as possible.
Some point out the weak point of having too many possible classes where yes you can be the worlds fastest but of 3 cars on earth very little hype or recognition. This seems to point out the BAD part of too many classes. A back door comment for combining classes or limited numbers of possible classes. Then at least the 20 guys in the country racing the same combo knows you are good if you win or set the record. Today who knows the names of the record holders? who cares unless its your class.. I only check dragster to see what my competitors ran in their races as a gauge of my performance.
We all see a win as a win but a high % appreciate class wins better. Then there is Jeff who seems to mis understand the poll intent as bringing down class. No it was pointed at showing the challenge of fastest car (of whatever form) drives most S and SS racers. Would making fewer classes and "forcing " a limited kind of cars or combinations add anything? to the greater good? of the Class racing by causing MORE of it? Class at Indy is the only true place enough current cars can enter at one time. What if an event with 80 entries in S or SS had 10 cars per class? Wherever you raced.

Dick here you go again with this drivel. About reducing classes.
Whose fault is it if nobody else builds a car for the class you run in?
In that case lets get rid of AA, A, B, and C stock because according to this most of the older cars are quitting, mand that will leave just one car. So get rid of those classes!
I run a class where there are only 3 cars in the country. So I guess my class should be done away with? If not name some?

PS My car might be for sale shortly, so why don't you buy it for the greater good?

[Travis Miller]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

What if an event with 80 entries in S or SS had 10 cars per class?

If that turned out to be the norm at enough events in a season, within the next couple years there would probably wind up being 2 cars in each of those few classes and the sanctioning body would drop the eliminator for lack of participation.

While today there may be a lot of classes with some only having a few cars each, there is a lot of participation overall. That fact alone keeps Stock and S/S the popular eliminators that they are. Numbers overall not numbers per class are what has kept Stock and S/S alive all these many years. If you do not believe that, just look at the eliminators that have priced themselves almost into oblivion in the name of performance. It is overall numbers that those who run any business look at......including those in charge of drag racing sanctioning bodies.

Travis Miller

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

[Dick Butler]

Travis, You missed it. I meant what about a meet NHRA only ALLOWS 80 entrants.
There might be 200 if the field were OPEN but many events are limited due to space, time, etc....
The thing that keeps S and SS fun is the racers who LOVE to build cars and tune them to run fast. Seems many things become a negative to making one run fast by working on them but approved if they are a "new Kid on the block car"
Art, you are a perfect example. A fast car, scienced out , a pleasure to you. I give you credit for working within the rules, parameters whatever but......Who do you race if there are 3 cars?. If you were the fastest of a class with 20 cars even if they were all turbo, fwd cars wouldnt it seem greater accomplishment?. Especially if 15 came to INDY and YOU beat them all on common ground?
No disrespect intended to FWD, Turbo or 3 car classes, only discussion...

[Chris Barnes]

I've been bracket racing for sixteen years and class racing for five. Bracket racing is fantastic practice for class racing, better than any practice tree. Unfortunately, a competitive stocker is fragile and expensive compared to a typical bracket racer. Taking one to a bracket race is almost like shooting at cans with a $$$ Olympic target pistol. I took my C/SA Max Wedge wagon to the local season opener to shake it out this year and wounded the motor in the third round, causing me to take the season off. Ouch! I really wish I would have done it in the third round of an NHRA event.

Bracket racers frequently think of class racers as snobs but unless you've raced in Stock/Super Stock you just can't know what we know. I could probably bolt together two or three nine second 440 bracket motors for the cost of one legal Max Wedge but try telling that to the guy in the primer grey Duster in the other lane. He cuts .00 lights all the time and is gunning for his fourth straight track championship. He hasn't touched his motor since he pulled it out of Aunt Bessy's Imperial eight years ago. Our kind of racing makes no sense to him. Why should it? On the other hand, it's interesting to consider how many things that we class racers do that can actually make bracket cars cheaper. We learn the tricks that make stock equipment fly because we have to. If a bracket racer follows our lead to make his race car launch harder and more consistently on stock style suspension then he doesn't have to buy and install an aftermarket ladder bar or four link set up, for example.

I've had some good fun by building and racing a bracket cars but to tell you the truth I'm addicted now to driving my stocker now. I'm not a snob. I still go to the local bracket races but I got a driver. He's having a blast and I love it when he wins rounds! I guess the most important thing is just to be at a drag race in the first place since I have so many good friends that I have met and will meet in drag racing. It keeps me coming back no matter what's racing, except junior dragsters, wait a minute, I've got a four year old and a six year old...

All wins are great. I still remember my first win light. My favorite so far is my divisional Wally. He sits on a shelf and tells me it's okay to keep throwing good money after bad at this crazy habit. He wants a big brother.

Happy Holidays
Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock #6621

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by THE LEGEND

Bill,
Compare apples to apples here.
There are stockers for sale all day long and the majority are $20,000 up for a 9 inch tire no-electronics race car.
A 9 inch tire bracket car is half that price.

Yes a 4.50-5.50 bracket car will cost you much more than that. I will give you that point in the argument.

Let me ask you a question. When you converted over to a BBC how much did that motor cost you? In fact I think you have one for sale don't you. I will bet you 75% of the no electronics cars around here cost less than your motor!!!

And that right there is half the reason it worries me to go bracket racing sometimes. There is some serious junk at most local tracks, I'm not saying all are or even 20%, but there are some cars that I flat out wouldn't want in the other lane. I have never, not even once felt that way in Stock or SS.

For me building a bracket car is easy, follow less than a page worth of safety rules and that's it. What's the fun in that??? Class racers get as much enjoyment out of their cars themselves as they do driving them. I'm not saying that bracket racing is easy, just that mechanically, they are easy. No challenge at all. Hell i could have a nice C5 corvette to drive every day, that would be a great bracket car.