Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by GUMP

It hasn't been that way for quite some time now.
With all the stuff that the Feds make the factories install for safety, emissions, etc. I think that these cars are a move in the right direction. It is a crying shame to tear down a brand new car and take half of it to the dump. Especially since Stock hasn't been "stock" for a lot of years. I do wish that they had been built with production motors.

Darren, until recently Stock still required a production car intended for street use. It was that way for the specific purpose of keeping ringers out. That rule was rescinded for the specific purpose of allowing these cars in. You can bet it was why Stock and Super Stock were "taken away" from Bob and Wesley.

People have been tossing street equipment for decades, including Federally mandated safety and emissions devices. It would be fine if NHRA were to make allowances or concessions in shipping weight to allow for this. But it has proven to be a terrible idea for them to allow purpose built race cars in Stock. No one told you that you had to go buy a new car to make a race car. You may have decided to do that, and that is fine.

The truth is, you're hoping GM will follow suit and put a Camaro ringer in the guide, so you're okay with all of this. At this point, I don't care, because NHRA sure isn't going to make this right. But I'm not going to say it is the right thing to do, I'm just going to say that since it is how things are, I'd just as soon GM did it too. But I'm not going to hold my breath, since they haven't even put the production cars in the guide.

[Jeff Teuton]

The last time I didn't get close to 1.01 under. The trucks were shuffled into stock and that killed me. That is the truck. Maybe Kelley is a better tuner than me. And I have never gotten in with the Super Bee. Maybe on the trucks I just forgot and went home.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

...until recently Stock still required a production car intended for street use.

You and I both know that a large percentage of the 60's to early 70's muscle cars were purpose built to be competetive in Stock. The street part was secondary.

People have been tossing street equipment for decades, including Federally mandated safety and emissions devices. It would be fine if NHRA were to make allowances or concessions in shipping weight to allow for this.

Agree.

The truth is, you're hoping GM will follow suit and put a Camaro ringer in the guide, so you're okay with all of this.

My suggestions to GM were that I would like to see a production motor in a stripped down Camaro, so please don't make BS statements like that.

[Rich Biebel]

"You and I both know that a large percentage of the 60's to early 70's muscle cars were purpose built to be competetive in Stock. The street part was secondary."


That is totally untrue and not even remotely accurate in my opinion. I was a teenager during the musle car era and everyone was eager to see what was coming out from Detroit. If they had the money they could buy a car and do anything they wanted with it........yes many did race their cars but the vast majority were weekend warriors at best.....NOT serious racecars....Sales were driven by the magazines and the cars were affordable.......You could buy a brand new Muscle car for $3000....or LESS....Still a lot of money at the time but affordable.......It was just a matter of picking your options........The car companies had an "arms race" going and did it to sell cars......Winning on Sunday...selling on Monday........The top of the line cars helped sell the lower HP models......No way Detroit built these cars solely to win in Stock........Winning certainly didn't hurt sales.....Stock wasn't even where most of them ended up anyway.....Super Stock was where they were after the categorie was created in 1967.......SS/A to SS/J and SS/AA to SS/JA....
Almost all the cars I can think of were production vehicles readily available with very few "ringers".....

[Andys dad]

Let's be honest.

From the mid 60s to the early 70s we street raced most of them way more than we took them to the drag strip.

While in Indianapolis (mid 60s) we did go to Raceway park and Muncie on the weekends but we lit'em up during the week every chance we got. I remember lots of racing was on unfinished freeways or a deserted road late at night.

In LA (early 70s) there were many places (Rinaldi Blvd in the San Fernando Valley had an unfinished housing project that over look the boulevard for spectators - so they did not get in the way) hell we raced the cars we drove on the street every day, even after we turned them into race cars.

I certainly did not by a car to run stock back then

I bought it because I thought it was a ..…well a.….I don't know maybe it was just fun.

Might have to do it again - crap zero to 60 in under 6 seconds was fast back then

Not now - now we talk about zero to a 100 under 6 seconds

Just thought I would lighten up this thread a little

[Randy Wells]

Let's do this if you run, let's say 10.30 @ 110 MPH. You get HP , Monday
Otherwise its just a very expensive bracket car bracket racing, get over it
Wells Bros
D/S 5034

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

"You and I both know that a large percentage of the 60's to early 70's muscle cars were purpose built to be competetive in Stock. The street part was secondary."


That is totally untrue and not even remotely accurate in my opinion. I was a teenager during the musle car era and everyone was eager to see what was coming out from Detroit. If they had the money they could buy a car and do anything they wanted with it........yes many did race their cars but the vast majority were weekend warriors at best.....NOT serious racecars....Sales were driven by the magazines and the cars were affordable.......You could buy a brand new Muscle car for $3000....or LESS....Still a lot of money at the time but affordable.......It was just a matter of picking your options........The car companies had an "arms race" going and did it to sell cars......Winning on Sunday...selling on Monday........The top of the line cars helped sell the lower HP models......No way Detroit built these cars solely to win in Stock........Winning certainly didn't hurt sales.....Stock wasn't even where most of them ended up anyway.....Super Stock was where they were after the categorie was created in 1967.......SS/A to SS/J and SS/AA to SS/JA....
Almost all the cars I can think of were production vehicles readily available with very few "ringers".....

Read what I said again. I believe that I stated that they were built to be competetive. What you did with them and how you ordered them was up to you.

I'm not as old as you guys, but I have stacks of old reviews sitting around from that era. I would bet that 90% mention which Stock class the car will fit (especially Cars, Hot Rod, etc.).

[Ed Fernandez]

If you really want the hp figures fixed just change the eliminator to the old way of running on the national record.That would cut down the fields for a year but it would bring out the true potential of these under powered combos,both old and new.But we know that NHRA wouldn't have the balls to do that.
And Gump,look at the times the old muscle cars ran back then,granted they were on the bias ply street tires.But my present day 6 cylinder Gremlin could dust 90% of them,no matter how they came from the factory.Even alot of the current day fart pipe cars could do the same.
NHRA opened the barn doors a long time ago and it's probably too late to get the horse back in the corral.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

I, yes I have been asked "not to feed the animals" but well, I have a very solid opinion on this I expressed it before and was well disagreed with.

When this thread Started, I HONESTLEY Believed there was an honest question, not a disquised reason to rant.

This has been flogged to death in this and 97 other threads.

Why didnt you title the thread "DP and CJ Ratings" ? Well....I have an idea few would have responded, why did you feel it neccesary to disquise your question and intent ?

I think (and would even if we DIDNT have a DP, yes really) that this is GOOD for Stock, and Superstock and the NHRA, the Manufactuers, the Fans, The Press....look at the balance sheet...its good for more than its bad for, unfortunatley the people who feel it bad are a pretty good crew that ive been fortunate to become a part of.

I, I do have empathy, Ive been there, I have been there in spades. So they werent cars...so what my investment, work and effort were no different, and the changes led to a pretty long hiatus from bikes.But I DO understand 100% , Now we have Wera, and AHRMA and well...its fun, its not "spotlight time" but if thats not youre reason for doing it (and it isnt mine) then its awesome.

Racing, well I think that a LOT of racers are looking at it wrong, they see racing PURLEY as a Competitive sport, and for THEM it is, but you have to understand RACERS themselves are only a Small, (small but irreplacable and important) part of Racing.

Racing , to the REST of the world is one of 2 things, a vertical market for sale of products to, OR ENTERTAINMENT....yes pure and simple ENTERTAINMENT.

Do you really think 98.5% of people in the stands, the ones that gate revenue comes from, the ones that the Sponsors are targeting, the ones that make National events even feasible from a cost offset, do you think they care 1 bit about keeping the new cars out or rated right ?

You feel you are the reason for racing and everything should cater to your perception of "fair play" but understand you (and I) are a small , understandably critical but small part.

Who do you think they are more interested in making happy, a small contingent of drivers or everyone else ?

I mean am I the only person that understands how the real adult grown up world works ? You live in it and adapt, or you perish its simple, very simple.

How many buggy whip makers do you know ?

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by drooze

I, yes I have been asked "not to feed the animals" but well, I have a very solid opinion on this I expressed it before and was well disagreed with.

When this thread Started, I HONESTLEY Believed there was an honest question, not a disquised reason to rant.

This has been flogged to death in this and 97 other threads.

Why didnt you title the thread "DP and CJ Ratings" ? Well....I have an idea few would have responded, why did you feel it neccesary to disquise your question and intent ?

I think (and would even if we DIDNT have a DP, yes really) that this is GOOD for Stock, and Superstock and the NHRA, the Manufactuers, the Fans, The Press....look at the balance sheet...its good for more than its bad for, unfortunatley the people who feel it bad are a pretty good crew that ive been fortunate to become a part of.

I, I do have empathy, Ive been there, I have been there in spades. So they werent cars...so what my investment, work and effort were no different, and the changes led to a pretty long hiatus from bikes.But I DO understand 100% , Now we have Wera, and AHRMA and well...its fun, its not "spotlight time" but if thats not youre reason for doing it (and it isnt mine) then its awesome.

Racing, well I think that a LOT of racers are looking at it wrong, they see racing PURLEY as a Competitive sport, and for THEM it is, but you have to understand RACERS themselves are only a Small, (small but irreplacable and important) part of Racing.

Racing , to the REST of the world is one of 2 things, a vertical market for sale of products to, OR ENTERTAINMENT....yes pure and simple ENTERTAINMENT.

Do you really think 98.5% of people in the stands, the ones that gate revenue comes from, the ones that the Sponsors are targeting, the ones that make National events even feasible from a cost offset, do you think they care 1 bit about keeping the new cars out or rated right ?

You feel you are the reason for racing and everything should cater to your perception of "fair play" but understand you (and I) are a small , understandably critical but small part.

Who do you think they are more interested in making happy, a small contingent of drivers or everyone else ?

I mean am I the only person that understands how the real adult grown up world works ? You live in it and adapt, or you perish its simple, very simple.

How many buggy whip makers do you know ?

Chris,I think the thing that rankles peoples nuts is the wildly miss factoring that's been allowed in the past few years.Look at some of the runs in the past few years.
An example is the record in T/SA.I set it in 2006 at 13.51 (1.19 under the then index of 14.70).Bob Shaw,who is the master of obscure combos,and I say that affectionately,reset
it at 13.27 (1.43 under).The current R/SA is now (1.49 under).The Q/SA is (1.48 under).
And there's more.These guys are flying and I'm sure they have worked on their cars,but
going about 1.50 under should trigger a red flag for NHRA to look at the factoring on these combos.
The examples I've used are all combos that most guys won't run and the only ones who have to contend with them are few,unlike the Mustangs and Challengers.
We're just now starting to get some grumbling from the H/SA guys over the recent runs by Jeffs car.With the release of the GM cars it will only get worse for those running the current older combos.If we all hit the lotto it wouldn't be a problem.The only thing is future races will look like a NASCAR race with 3 world cars in competition.
As I mentioned in another thread,running off the indexes for one year will reign in the combos that those running them chose to compete with.Otherwise they will never show what they have.
Now that's real life.