Ford 390 FE help

Robbie Welch · 06-30-2012, 06:20 PM

I need a little help with a 390 I'm working on. It had trouble running with less then 50deg total timing so I put a Deg wheel on it with a piston stop and sure enough it was 8 deg wrong. While I was there I pulled the timing chain cover to make sure the cam was installed correctly and it was but it had a stardard timing chain on it. Now I'm installing a roller chain, my problem is the cam dowel was sticking out of the fuel Pp eccentric about .250 which looked wrong and when I took the cam gear off the dowel came out with it. My problem is it appears that another pin may be at the bottom of the dowel hole (which is only .325 deep). My question is can the cam dowel pin be pushed back through the front of the cam on FE engines. Sorry for being so long. Thanks for your help Robbie

Rory McNeil · 06-30-2012, 10:27 PM

Ford used 2 different fuel pump eccentrics on the 63 1/2 and newer FEs, the older engines used a thick 1 piece eccentric, which used a long dowel pin in the cam. The pin should stick close to flush in the eccentric, the cam bolt washer holds it in place. Later FEs (not sure exactly when), used a 2 piece eccentric, with one thin inner piece, with a slightly larger outer ring that slips over the inner. (I am guessing it was a friction reducing modification). With the 2 piece eccentric, a shorter dowel pin is used, as the inner eccentric has a small tab that fits into the dowel hole of the cam gear, so the pin needs to be short enough to allow this tab to fit inside the hole, and allow the inner eccentric to sit flush against the cam gear. `The cam dowel hole in the camshaft does not go all the way thru, so if there is something jammed in there, you wont be able to push it farther in, assuming it is bottomed out. I suppose you could shorten the pin you have, but i would be concerned if .325 is a safe enough depth for the pin to fit inside the cam.
Also, if the old timing set was origional, the backside of the cam gear is flat, with the thick C shaped washer that is a spacer, that fits inside the cam retainer thrust plate. Every aftermarket cam gear I have ever seen has a built in step on the backside, so DO NOT reinstall the C washer. To do so would cause the cam gear to not be parallel with the crank gear.
As for your timing marks being off, are you using an ATI Damper. I have had a couple of these that were off by 7 or 8 degrees with the OE timing pointer. If it is a OE Ford balancer, there is a possibility that the outer ring has slipped on the hub. do you have another balancer you can compare with.

Robbie Welch · 07-01-2012, 07:12 AM

Rory thanks for ther reply. The balancer is stock and in ok shape the dowel was my concern. I didn't know if it went thru the cam or not on a FE. It looks like I'll be replacing the cam, would you reuse the lifter? Thanks again Robbie

pmrphil · 07-01-2012, 09:45 AM

If you're changing the cam you HAVE to use new lifters, have you checked into having the old cam redrilled and install the dowel 180 deg. off? It's common practice to double dowel Ford cams when there is high spring pressures, so you should be able to re-use the cam you have now, just don't forget to keep the lifters in order.

Robbie Welch · 07-01-2012, 09:19 PM

Thanks for the reply Phil. Some of the mystery has been solved. The cam dowel hole had a cut off bolt in it to make the dowel long enough to contact the eccentric (it wasn't out of the eccentric .250 like I thought). I did keep the lifters in order but I thank I'm going to put a hydraulic cam in it (its a street car). Thanks Rory and Phil for the help

Dinsdale · 07-01-2012, 10:54 PM

I'm not a big fan of Hydro cams but they do make some good hydro rollers nowaways. I'd suggest contacting this guy for some help in choosing what you need. He's also got a great book out.

survivalmotorsports.com

Rory McNeil · 07-02-2012, 02:26 AM

Robbie, if the obstruction is indeed a cut down bolt, in the cam dowel hole, how about trying to knock it out by removing the camshaft, and tapping it nose down against a bench or other hard surface. If that won`t remove it, you could always try drilling it out, at least enough to get a safe amount of pin engagement. It sounds like the dowel pin in your cam was the shorter 2 piece eccentric version, being used with a 1 piece eccentric.

Robbie Welch · 07-02-2012, 05:52 AM

The cut off bolt came out when I took the cam out. The cam dowel hole is .640 deep now I thought the .325 wasn't deep enough. The only problem now is the dowel hole has a small amount of movemment in it. Like I said it's a street car and he doesn't need the valve train noise. Thanks again for the help Robbie

BlueOval Ralph · 07-02-2012, 08:51 AM

You can save a cam with a broken dowel pin or bolt by have them burnt out called eloxing not sure spelling is correct not cheap and it will not change the size of the hole. I have had a lot of this done in the past. Hand a broken tap removed form a small block Ford oil galley.

rawhide · 07-02-2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie Welch

The cut off bolt came out when I took the cam out. The cam dowel hole is .640 deep now I thought the .325 wasn't deep enough. The only problem now is the dowel hole has a small amount of movemment in it. Like I said it's a street car and he doesn't need the valve train noise. Thanks again for the help Robbie

Robbie,
The dowel pin needs to be snug in the cam. This is important in Fords due to the bolt being in the center of the cam. If it had three bolts off center like a Cheby it would not be as important. If the dowel is loose it will allow the timing gear to move enough to loosen the bolt. When I was building engines I used two dowels in most applications although this was mostly 429/460 style engines.
regards

06-30-2012, 06:20 PM	#1
Robbie Welch Live Reporter Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Golden Beach Maryland Posts: 1,234 Likes: 55 Liked 262 Times in 124 Posts	Ford 390 FE help I need a little help with a 390 I'm working on. It had trouble running with less then 50deg total timing so I put a Deg wheel on it with a piston stop and sure enough it was 8 deg wrong. While I was there I pulled the timing chain cover to make sure the cam was installed correctly and it was but it had a stardard timing chain on it. Now I'm installing a roller chain, my problem is the cam dowel was sticking out of the fuel Pp eccentric about .250 which looked wrong and when I took the cam gear off the dowel came out with it. My problem is it appears that another pin may be at the bottom of the dowel hole (which is only .325 deep). My question is can the cam dowel pin be pushed back through the front of the cam on FE engines. Sorry for being so long. Thanks for your help Robbie

06-30-2012, 10:27 PM	#2
Rory McNeil VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: from Vancouver BC Canada, now in Nova Scotia Posts: 1,307 Likes: 313 Liked 1,090 Times in 299 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help Ford used 2 different fuel pump eccentrics on the 63 1/2 and newer FEs, the older engines used a thick 1 piece eccentric, which used a long dowel pin in the cam. The pin should stick close to flush in the eccentric, the cam bolt washer holds it in place. Later FEs (not sure exactly when), used a 2 piece eccentric, with one thin inner piece, with a slightly larger outer ring that slips over the inner. (I am guessing it was a friction reducing modification). With the 2 piece eccentric, a shorter dowel pin is used, as the inner eccentric has a small tab that fits into the dowel hole of the cam gear, so the pin needs to be short enough to allow this tab to fit inside the hole, and allow the inner eccentric to sit flush against the cam gear. `The cam dowel hole in the camshaft does not go all the way thru, so if there is something jammed in there, you wont be able to push it farther in, assuming it is bottomed out. I suppose you could shorten the pin you have, but i would be concerned if .325 is a safe enough depth for the pin to fit inside the cam. Also, if the old timing set was origional, the backside of the cam gear is flat, with the thick C shaped washer that is a spacer, that fits inside the cam retainer thrust plate. Every aftermarket cam gear I have ever seen has a built in step on the backside, so DO NOT reinstall the C washer. To do so would cause the cam gear to not be parallel with the crank gear. As for your timing marks being off, are you using an ATI Damper. I have had a couple of these that were off by 7 or 8 degrees with the OE timing pointer. If it is a OE Ford balancer, there is a possibility that the outer ring has slipped on the hub. do you have another balancer you can compare with. __________________ NHRA 6390 STK M/S 85 Mustang

07-01-2012, 07:12 AM	#3
Robbie Welch Live Reporter Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Golden Beach Maryland Posts: 1,234 Likes: 55 Liked 262 Times in 124 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help Rory thanks for ther reply. The balancer is stock and in ok shape the dowel was my concern. I didn't know if it went thru the cam or not on a FE. It looks like I'll be replacing the cam, would you reuse the lifter? Thanks again Robbie

07-01-2012, 09:45 AM	#4
pmrphil Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: CT Posts: 454 Likes: 1,780 Liked 345 Times in 149 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help If you're changing the cam you HAVE to use new lifters, have you checked into having the old cam redrilled and install the dowel 180 deg. off? It's common practice to double dowel Ford cams when there is high spring pressures, so you should be able to re-use the cam you have now, just don't forget to keep the lifters in order. __________________ Phil Molski PMR Performance S/C 1623

07-01-2012, 09:19 PM	#5
Robbie Welch Live Reporter Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Golden Beach Maryland Posts: 1,234 Likes: 55 Liked 262 Times in 124 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help Thanks for the reply Phil. Some of the mystery has been solved. The cam dowel hole had a cut off bolt in it to make the dowel long enough to contact the eccentric (it wasn't out of the eccentric .250 like I thought). I did keep the lifters in order but I thank I'm going to put a hydraulic cam in it (its a street car). Thanks Rory and Phil for the help

07-01-2012, 10:54 PM	#6
Dinsdale Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 313 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help I'm not a big fan of Hydro cams but they do make some good hydro rollers nowaways. I'd suggest contacting this guy for some help in choosing what you need. He's also got a great book out. survivalmotorsports.com __________________ Dale Posnick

07-02-2012, 02:26 AM	#7
Rory McNeil VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: from Vancouver BC Canada, now in Nova Scotia Posts: 1,307 Likes: 313 Liked 1,090 Times in 299 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help Robbie, if the obstruction is indeed a cut down bolt, in the cam dowel hole, how about trying to knock it out by removing the camshaft, and tapping it nose down against a bench or other hard surface. If that won`t remove it, you could always try drilling it out, at least enough to get a safe amount of pin engagement. It sounds like the dowel pin in your cam was the shorter 2 piece eccentric version, being used with a 1 piece eccentric. __________________ NHRA 6390 STK M/S 85 Mustang

07-02-2012, 05:52 AM	#8
Robbie Welch Live Reporter Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Golden Beach Maryland Posts: 1,234 Likes: 55 Liked 262 Times in 124 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help The cut off bolt came out when I took the cam out. The cam dowel hole is .640 deep now I thought the .325 wasn't deep enough. The only problem now is the dowel hole has a small amount of movemment in it. Like I said it's a street car and he doesn't need the valve train noise. Thanks again for the help Robbie

07-02-2012, 08:51 AM	#9
BlueOval Ralph Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 852 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Ford 390 FE help You can save a cam with a broken dowel pin or bolt by have them burnt out called eloxing not sure spelling is correct not cheap and it will not change the size of the hole. I have had a lot of this done in the past. Hand a broken tap removed form a small block Ford oil galley.