Flat tappet lifter failure

[Doug Hoven]

I understand completely. The material that camshafts were made out of 15-20 years ago seems to have been a much better material than what they are now. The camshaft I ran in my engine has had hundreds if not close to a thousand passes on it, and still looks brand new, but it was made 20+ years ago. I was fortunate to have a donation of old camshafts over this past season. A few may be of use the way they are, but at least if the lobe separation is what I want, I could always get them reground. Especially with cam prices, I’d much rather send an old cam out to get reground than have a new one done. As expensive as things are in stock, I would think that more and more would switch to a billet cam rather than a cast cam. I’m still amazed how cheap you can get an off the shelf cam from summit, competition products nowadays. For less than $200, you can get a cam and a set of flat tappet lifters(hydraulic of course). Not that you could race with one, but IMHO it’s crazy how prices can double and triple for a cast custom grind cam. There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers. I hope that NHRA is smart enough to leave that rule alone.

[Barry Polley]

Did I hear them say in the conversation that they took a flat tappet grind, pretty much copied for a roller and saw negative gain?
I’ll watch it again.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

I understand completely. The material that camshafts were made out of 15-20 years ago seems to have been a much better material than what they are now. The camshaft I ran in my engine has had hundreds if not close to a thousand passes on it, and still looks brand new, but it was made 20+ years ago. I was fortunate to have a donation of old camshafts over this past season. A few may be of use the way they are, but at least if the lobe separation is what I want, I could always get them reground. Especially with cam prices, I’d much rather send an old cam out to get reground than have a new one done. As expensive as things are in stock, I would think that more and more would switch to a billet cam rather than a cast cam. I’m still amazed how cheap you can get an off the shelf cam from summit, competition products nowadays. For less than $200, you can get a cam and a set of flat tappet lifters(hydraulic of course). Not that you could race with one, but IMHO it’s crazy how prices can double and triple for a cast custom grind cam. There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers. I hope that NHRA is smart enough to leave that rule alone.

So it is being said that CWC, the company that was doing cast cores, is going to severely curtail production of cast cores, if not cease it entirely. I'm sure they'll kill the "P-55" cores, the lobe lock cores, etc. None of the cam companies will invest in large enough runs to make it feasible to cast them. The current cost of labor and quality materials, and the current anti foundry climate is driving this as well.



The steel billet cores are extremely expensive. Most are intended for high lift roller cams. If you were to grind them for low lift stock applications, you'll grind through the heat treat. This will require another heat treat operation, a finish grind operation, and a polish operation. They're also not necessarily always available. There has been a serious shortage of billets for even custom rollers. I've had to wait months for cams I once got in a week.



The cost of tool steel lifters has more than quadrupled, and the wait time is measured in quarters, not weeks or months. I have been a dealer almost since they were first released.


There is no quick, simple solution, especially since most of the camshaft companies have been bought by "private equity" corporations, who have zero interest in any custom work. They want only "A" and "B" movers that they can move, mostly through big box stores, for a consistent fairly large margin. The same applies to most suppliers of flat tappets.


Still, merely switching to roller lifters is not the solution that the uninitiated think it is, nor what the people on that round table think it is.

[Terry Cain]

"There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers."

Yep. That's me. After 3 failures in a role, not racing for 2 years while waiting on parts and then the cost. Yep, That is me.
Not to worry, I sold the car. Guess I'll quit racing as everyone wants to stick their head in the sand and go about this problem like it doesn't exist.

[Billy Nees]

Alan, it seems to me (and I'm saying this with a grin on my face and my tongue in my cheek!) that with the attrition-rate of aftermarket parts manufacturers and the availability of hard-core parts, we may soon all be either racing new (newer) combos or front-wheel-drive pieces of s!!t! ;-(

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Terry Cain

"There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers."

Yep. That's me. After 3 failures in a role, not racing for 2 years while waiting on parts and then the cost. Yep, That is me.
Not to worry, I sold the car. Guess I'll quit racing as everyone wants to stick their head in the sand and go about this problem like it doesn't exist.

ROFLMAO!!!!!


You are utterly oblivious. There are several people who are working behind the scenes to find a viable solution to the problem. They're talking to cam companies and lifter companies, trying to find the requisite quality, availability, and affordability, to solve the problem. Some people are doing a lot more for the class than just posting whines and begging for rule changes. But you just go right on crying, I'm sure that will help more than anything.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Alan, it seems to me (and I'm saying this with a grin on my face and my tongue in my cheek!) that with the attrition-rate of aftermarket parts manufacturers and the availability of hard-core parts, we may soon all be either racing new (newer) combos or front-wheel-drive pieces of s!!t! ;-(

Despite cancer trying to kill me, and bankrupt me, I have not quit just yet. I love the class. I have a few certain combinations I'm interested in, and there's an ET and MPH that is the minimum to make it enjoyable for me. I don't care to race the newer stuff, and if I want to go slow, I can bracket race my tow vehicle. I much prefer Stock, for some reason. Probably because I'm stubborn and somewhat stupid in certain ways. I should know better. The fact is, it's probably smarter and not too much more expensive to run Super Stock. Hell, I've already got what is probably still a relatively competitive 396 Super Stock engine in the shop. But it's not what I really want to do. And honestly, I feel a certain devotion to Stock, and I get some satisfaction out of working for the class. I like talking to the suppliers and trying to convince them to support the class. I believe the class is worth it.

[Doug Hoven]

Originally Posted by Terry Cain

Yep. That's me. After 3 failures in a role, not racing for 2 years while waiting on parts and then the cost. Yep, That is me.
Not to worry, I sold the car. Guess I'll quit racing as everyone wants to stick their head in the sand and go about this problem like it doesn't exist.

Well that sounds like a logical chain of events to me.... Did you try something different all three times, or did the same thing over and over again expecting different results? I've always been an advocate of running as little valve spring pressure needed to avoid valve float at the peak rpm your engine is going to see. I'm not trying to get up on a soap box and tell you how to build your engine. I build my own stuff, and it's slow, but I'm working on it. I am trying a new, well new to me, camshaft this season. With any luck all of my talk on here won't cause my cam to flatten on startup. I've had good luck with Clay Smith lifters on the handful of flat tappet engines I've built.

[Terry Cain]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

Well that sounds like a logical chain of events to me.... Did you try something different all three times, or did the same thing over and over again expecting different results? I've always been an advocate of running as little valve spring pressure needed to avoid valve float at the peak rpm your engine is going to see. I'm not trying to get up on a soap box and tell you how to build your engine. I build my own stuff, and it's slow, but I'm working on it. I am trying a new, well new to me, camshaft this season. With any luck all of my talk on here won't cause my cam to flatten on startup. I've had good luck with Clay Smith lifters on the handful of flat tappet engines I've built.

Each was different. Let's just say I've learned and paid dearly because of it. lol
BUT prob won't be messing with a heavy valve flat tappet motor the rest of my lifetime. To me, it makes no since to try when the materials and manufacturing we are getting are just not what they use to be.

[Barry Polley]

In listening I also heard the oil additives we are buying for extended wear capability is not even close to what the oil chemists used in the oil we are using. My guess is regulations won’t allow it.