Best Pontiac Powered Super Stockers

[BRINK]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Thanks for that info !

If this info is correct, looks like he gets 6 more hp, in GT/ auto trans, than you have in a '74 Vent. Don't know how NHRA gives the same engine a different hp factor, depending on which body it's in or whether there is a manual or auto trans behind it. But hey, you current racers know a LOT more about all that than me.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

Assuming by the times he's running that he doesn't have an all-out Parsons & Meyers Super Stock 350. Or does he ? Just ASSUMING that he built the car, on purpose, to run a safe distance below his index, and maintain the rest of the car in near Stock Elim form. But, if this assumption is NOT correct, I'd like to have that info.

Just looked up some times run by the '74 GTO Stocker driven by Brad Koivisto. It ran some 11.20's.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

So, a strong Stock legal '74 350 engine will provide enuff power to run under the GT index. Don't need a huge roller cam & alum intake. So, it makes perfect sense that a good 350 build, with a bigger than Stock legal, flat tappet or small roller cam should run under the GT index.

There are obviously 400, 428, & 455 engines which can also be built to run under their GT index. But, I figure the 350 will require a bit less traction, to hook it up. So, if building a low budget Pontiac powered GT car, the 350 seems like a good choice.

And, I've already mentioned the fact that some of the 400 powered Stockers have run SS, at a few races, & ran under their index. For example: The SS/IA index is 10.70. There are some of the 1st gen Bird Stockers, which will fit that class, which can run under that index, in Stock legal form.

Just all food for thought. If somebody wants to get into SS racing, but wants to do it on a lower budget than building or buying an all-out, big tire SS car, there are ways to do it, with Pontiac power.

The 350 engine from 1974 increased to 256 in all RWD GT's regardless of the car that it is in.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by BRINK

The 350 engine from 1974 increased to 256 in all RWD GT's regardless of the car that it is in.

Yeah, maybe I didn't make clear what I was trying to say.

IF, & ONLY if the info on the site I'm linking is correct (and I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't), then:

(1) The hp factor for Ventura reg SS, with both man & auto trans, as well as GT cars with man trans, is 250hp.

(2) For all other non-Ventura bodies running reg SS, with both man & auto trans, the factor is 254hp.

(3) For all GT RWD vehicles, runing an auto trans, the factor is 256hp.

So, if this info IS correct, NHRA has assigned 3 different hp factors to exactly the same engine.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, I'm wondering why a Ventura running reg SS, gets only 250hp, while all other bodies running regular SS, with the same engine, get 254hp. And, why all GT cars running an auto trans get 256hp, while GT cars running a man trans get only 250hp. Another way to say it is: What does the body style or trans type have to do with the power an engine makes. Just my hillbilly common sense tells me that if an engine makes 250 dyno hp, that engine would make the same amount of power, at the flywheel, regardless of what vehicle that engine was put into. But, obviously, that's NOT the way NHRA sees it.

And, obviously, NHRA does this with some other brands as well, since I've read on this site of others complaining about it. If I understand it correctly, SOMETIMES this difference is based on the fact that a single person, or more, has run really quick with a particular engine, in a particular vehicle, whereas other vehicles, with exactly the same engine, have not run as quick, therefore ONLY the quick combo gets the hp increase. Assuming that's the way it works, in SOME cases. ???

[BRINK]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, maybe I didn't make clear what I was trying to say.

IF, & ONLY if the info on the site I'm linking is correct (and I have know way of knowing if it is or isn't), then:

(1) The hp factor for Ventura reg SS, with both man & auto trans, as well as GT cars with man trans, is 250hp.

(2) For all other non-Ventura bodies running reg SS, with both man & auto trans, the factor is 254hp.

(3) For all GT RWD vehicles, runing an auto trans, the factor is 256hp.

So, if this info IS correct, NHRA has assigned 3 different hp factors to exactly the same engine.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, I'm wondering why a Ventura running reg SS, gets only 250hp, while all other bodies running regular SS, with the same engine, get 254hp. And, why all GT cars running an auto trans get 256hp, while GT cars running a man trans get only 250hp. Another way to say it is: What does the body style or trans type have to do with the power an engine makes. Just my hillbilly common sense tells me that if an engine makes 250 dyno hp, that engine would make the same amount of power, at the flywheel, regardless of what vehicle that eninge was put into. But, obviously, that's NOT the way NHRA sees it.

And, obviously, NHRA does this with some other brands as well, since I've read on this site of others complaining about it. If I understand it correctly, SOMETIMES this difference is based on the fact that a single person, or more, has run really quick with a particular engine, in a particular vehicle, whereas other vehicles, with exactly the same engine, have not run as quick, therefore ONLY the quick combo gets the hp increase. Assuming that's the way it works, in SOME cases. ???

Let me clear up the confusion. There presently is only one 1974 GTO running in either S/S or GT with the 350, 200 HP engine that it came with. That would be me. My combination has been rated at 250 HP in the GTO for decades. This past season I hurt the combination while running in GT/QA at four different races. As a result, I was awarded 6 HP for my efforts. However, there were no triggers in S/S with my combination. So, it remains at 250 HP in Super/Stock. The only Pontiac Ventura II in 1974 with the ram air 350 at 200 HP was the GTO, not any other variant. For the record, the 1974 Ventura II with a flat hood(non ram-air) was only available with a two barrel and was factory rated at 170 HP. Larry Maxwell is running the GTO 350, 200 HP motor in his Firebird. We are the only two racers in the entire planet that run this motor, at the present time. 2020 will be the 26th year that I've run my 1974 GTO. Thirteen years in Stock Eliminator and now thirteen in Super/Stock.

[BRINK]

To clear up my last post, Larry and I are the only two racers in S/S running that motor. There are several other racers running the 1974 GTO in Stock Eliminator. But only two in Super/Stock.

[oldskool]

Here's round 1 of class elims, in SS, at the 2015 US Nats. Bill Rink won his SS/LA class. Robert Cruzen won his GT/AA class. Mike Morgan was RU in his SS/MA class.

[oldskool]

"... The only Pontiac Ventura II in 1974 with the ram air 350 at 200 HP was the GTO, not any other variant...."

Wow ! That means that all the info on the Class Racer Info site, about the cars that engine can be used in is absolutely wrong. It shows that engine to be legal in all Ventura models, including 4-doors, & most Lemans models, including 4-door models.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2088

The NHRA site seems to show the same info as the Class Racer Info site.

http://www.nhra.net/tech_specs/class...s/1974PONT.xls

Maybe it's sorta like it is with the SD455 engine. Some online sources say that engine was only released in Birds. But, some say they know of one or more that came in a GP. So, NHRA allows it in more than just Birds.

I think a member here runs that Class Racer Info site. Maybe I should give him this info & see what he can get from NHRA, on it ? He probably wants all the info on the site to be accurate.

The Wallace engine ID site does list a '74 4-barrel 350, that is not a GTO engine. The block code is WN. Looks like it was 170hp with 4C heads, & 200hp with 46 heads. So, MAYBE, a 200hp version was available in some models other than just the GTO. I DON"T KNOW !

1974 350 170/200 HP WN M 7.6 555 4C/46 1-4 7044269 Block Casting # 488986

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm

The 1st hint I had that a non-GTO Vent could run the same engine was from the pics from the '74 US Nats. Al Vanis won, in a flat hood Vent, in O/SA. Rock Running won the O/S class in his '74 GTO. To me, that means the 2 cars were running the same engine, one with auto, one with stick. Don't think a 2-barrel engine would run O, when the GTO also ran O.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2083

The Class Racer Info site shows that the 170hp 4-barrel 350 can run the same cam as the 200hp engine.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2083

Also shows the same min chamber volume & max CR, for both engines. I'm not saying they were the same from the factory. But, it looks as tho NHRA allows the same specs for both. The Wallace site shows that the non-CA GTO engines used the 066 Pontiac cam. I've read that although the GTO engine was said to have more CR, that they actually used exactly the same cc chambers as the non-GTO 350. Again, I DON'T KNOW !

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

One thing appears certain. What came from the factory, & what NHRA allows, are sometimes 2 completely different things !

[oldskool]

At the 2012 Winter Nats, there were 5 Pontiacs in SS.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2012#indextop

Here's the 1st round.