Indy Teardown Warning

[novassdude]

Originally Posted by Ken Miele

My thoughts on this are mixed, yeah I want there to be a fair playing field, but in the middle of the season and right before Indy (the only real place you get torn down) the game has changed. The racers I feel for, and I guess I am included and it probably includes most racers running a 2008 and newer combos, is we don't do our own engines and rely on the engine builder. With that said we are responsible for our combos and have to deal with the consequences

Here is my take on this if you are buying a "stock" engine where very little modifications are allowed and paying $25000 you know very well they are doing something extra. You want a engine that will pass tech (in its current form) not necessarily a legal to the letter of the law engine.

Good news is since modifying the head and intake is not allowed. all you need to do is pick up a set of original heads and intake and bolt them on since modifications were never allowed it shouldn't slow down much.

FYI the term "you" means all people buying there power not just Ken.

I applaud NHRA for doing this it should have been done long ago the technology has been there. The price has probably just came down. It may take time for them to get to some of the hard to find odd combinations. But I would bet they have the popular combinations scanned already.

[Ken Miele]

Originally Posted by novassdude

The price has probably just came down.

I don't see the price coming down as it will cost thousand to fix if you are not in complacence with there scan. And with all do respect you do not take into account core shift. Thousand of the heads that are in production can not possible be all the same.

If you think this will bring more people back to Stock, your are sadly mistaken. They take away tech at nationals to streamline the races because NHRA does not have the personnel. They shorten the races for the sportsman because they don't have the personnel. We can not park on Monday the week of Indy because they don't have the personnel. Many races they are short handed, I don't understand where the NHRA brass has come up the the resources and funds to push this agenda in Stock. I was told there will be 40 cars torn down at Indy and they may be torn down during qualifying. The more I here about what they are doing the more bizarre it gets.

Be careful what you wish for, you may not like it. Stock is just the name of the Class, it has little to do with the meaning. Every single car in Stock can be sited for an infraction of the rules, its all up to the tech official discretion.... is this the road you really want to go down.

[Ed Carpenter]

Wesley is tough but fair. The first time I meet him was at Baytown with my ex-66 Chevy II. I had called him previously and asked a lot of questions as to be legal. I pull into the tech area and walk up to Wesley introduce myself and he says real nice car Ed wrong trim on the trunk don’t bring it back like that again. Yes sir!

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Ken Miele

I don't see the price coming down as it will cost thousand to fix if you are not in complacence with there scan. And with all do respect you do not take into account core shift. Thousand of the heads that are in production can not possible be all the same.

If you think this will bring more people back to Stock, your are sadly mistaken. They take away tech at nationals to streamline the races because NHRA does not have the personnel. They shorten the races for the sportsman because they don't have the personnel. We can not park on Monday the week of Indy because they don't have the personnel. Many races they are short handed, I don't understand where the NHRA brass has come up the the resources and funds to push this agenda in Stock. I was told there will be 40 cars torn down at Indy and they may be torn down during qualifying. The more I here about what they are doing the more bizarre it gets.

Be careful what you wish for, you may not like it. Stock is just the name of the Class, it has little to do with the meaning. Every single car in Stock can be sited for an infraction of the rules, its all up to the tech official discretion.... is this the road you really want to go down.

It all changed in 1985 with the valve spring and cam rules being opened up. The RPM potential then required after market rods because of several blown engines, special lifters because of the unreal spring pressures being used, and later roller rockers when more complained about broken rocker arms. Then the playing with the head valve bowels and ports became mandatory to keep up the fast guys that caused more RPM's due to better air flow. I can assume being under staffed was because the tech guys who were competent became old, tired of the BS, and died off like my friend Marty Barratt ! Today NOTHING about a fast running stocker is stock. I have said it over and over to the NHRA people back in the 80's and 90's yet NOTHING was ever done about any of it. It was like talking to a brick wall ! I think where NHRA messed up was allowing ANY valve spring pressures. They should have limited the spring press to the same for everyone someplace around 150 lbs on the seat and 350 lbs open which if I remember right was the stock spring pressure for the 426 street Hemi's and 440 6 packs. Oh well ancient history !

[novassdude]

Originally Posted by Ken Miele

I don't see the price coming down as it will cost thousand to fix if you are not in complacence with there scan. And with all do respect you do not take into account core shift. Thousand of the heads that are in production can not possible be all the same.

If you think this will bring more people back to Stock, your are sadly mistaken. They take away tech at nationals to streamline the races because NHRA does not have the personnel. They shorten the races for the sportsman because they don't have the personnel. We can not park on Monday the week of Indy because they don't have the personnel. Many races they are short handed, I don't understand where the NHRA brass has come up the the resources and funds to push this agenda in Stock. I was told there will be 40 cars torn down at Indy and they may be torn down during qualifying. The more I here about what they are doing the more bizarre it gets.

Be careful what you wish for, you may not like it. Stock is just the name of the Class, it has little to do with the meaning. Every single car in Stock can be sited for an infraction of the rules, its all up to the tech official discretion.... is this the road you really want to go down.

Sorry should have been more clear on the Price comment. I was talking about the cost of the technology to scan the heads. Came down to where it is do able for NHRA.

[Greg Hill]

You guys need to realize the rules for heads have changed over the years. For example, any valve job is legal as long as it’s done off the center of the guide with a cutter. It will be a cluster if all of a sudden someone doesn’t like how something looks and everything measures right and there are no grinding marks, no welding or no epoxy. It’s really hard to have consistent rule enforcement if it’s subjective and not objective. When the sportsmen racers got representatives about 10 years ago, I was the rep for d-3. I was at Gainesville that year, 2008, and talked to several of the National tech guys.

One of the things that was on the minds of a lot of the officials and a lot of the racers was consistent rule enforcement from division to division. What was good in D-1 might not be good in D-5. The rules have to be made so they are easily enforced. The days of someone running their finger in an intake port and feeling it won’t cut it now day. I’m not a real high tech guy and don’t know anything about digitizing heads, however on the older cars with cast iron heads the same casting number can vary greatly from one head to another. On the new cars with CNC ports I’m sure digitizing would be possible.

One other little item I’ll throw out there is that there are aftermarket heads approved for stock eliminator combinations that are 20 cc too big on the intake runner as cast. The idea that something is drastically wrong with how the rules are enforced is wrong headed in my view. I haven’t heard any racers saying that they want things like they were 30 years ago. I have a similar view to Ken in that if you try to do things that are not consistent and objectively enforceable you could lose a bunch of racers. This battle was fought 10-12 years ago.

[novassdude]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

One of the things that was on the minds of a lot of the officials and a lot of the racers was consistent rule enforcement from division to division. What was good in D-1 might not be good in D-5. The rules have to be made so they are easily enforced. The days of someone running their finger in an intake port and feeling it won’t cut it now day. I’m not a real high tech guy and don’t know anything about digitizing heads, however on the older cars with cast iron heads the same casting number can vary greatly from one head to another. On the new cars with CNC ports I’m sure digitizing would be possible.

In my mind that is exactly what they are trying to do with using the scanner it will take all subjectivity away. The number of Tech people that can look at a 1962 head and say if it looked right or not are getting very hard to find. I am assuming that there will be a tolerance of some type built in for core shift and wear. In my mind it is better than the free for all that is happening today.

[Mike Fuller]

I find this thread very interesting because during my career as a machine shop supervisor for a fortune 500 company we had a CMM in the shop. It did not have a laser attachment but used a probe. I attend classes for the purpose of learning the software and hardware concerning this piece of equipment for two weeks. My best operator attended classes for about four weeks and was very good at using this for a number of purposes.

In 1991 when the company purchased this machine it cost $56,000.00.It was a Browne & Sharpe 7-10-7. Smaller ones were cheaper but still not significantly. I don't know what a CMM with a laser attachment that had the ability to perform a 3D scan on a cylinder head would cost today. I feel comfortable saying that if NHRA were to start doing this at national events it would be best to contract someone to do this because of the complexity of this procedure. Being able to compare the scanned data to the CAD file of a know stock head would take a talented and well trained professional.

I am not saying this can or cannot be done at Indy but, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen.

[Greg Hill]

This is chasing a problem that most racers are not concerned about. For the old cast iron heads it will be next to impossible to do. For the factory show down cars if one of the racers get a good port, the factory will just have someone make 25 sets with that port and introduce it as a replacement head. Stock eliminator is limited by the cam lift, the manifold, the compression ratio, and the weight of the reciprocating assembly, and most importantly the horsepower rating. As always the folks that work the hardest and spend the most money will run the fastest.

[Terry Cain]

Originally Posted by Mike Fuller

I find this thread very interesting because during my career as a machine shop supervisor for a fortune 500 company we had a CMM in the shop. It did not have a laser attachment but used a probe. I attend classes for the purpose of learning the software and hardware concerning this piece of equipment for two weeks. My best operator attended classes for about four weeks and was very good at using this for a number of purposes.

In 1991 when the company purchased this machine it cost $56,000.00.It was a Browne & Sharpe 7-10-7. Smaller ones were cheaper but still not significantly. I don't know what a CMM with a laser attachment that had the ability to perform a 3D scan on a cylinder head would cost today. I feel comfortable saying that if NHRA were to start doing this at national events it would be best to contract someone to do this because of the complexity of this procedure. Being able to compare the scanned data to the CAD file of a know stock head would take a talented and well trained professional.

I am not saying this can or cannot be done at Indy but, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen.

We had one too.
Had to have it calibrated once a year and the factory tech guy was always concerned . about the floor being level because we had BIG presses close by that shook the floor all day long. If they try to do it in a trailer I'd be real concerned.