Ladder bar leaf spring guys

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by joespanova

I have had the car VERY wheel stand prone in the past..........to the point of damaging stuff.
Since I lowered the ride height in the rear it wont..........so to recover ( some ) I either move the bars or lower the housing on the perches.....I dont want to raise the azz end up a hole on the perches , sooo.........past level?
I'm already slightly down a degree or so............so I either go down more or up 1 hole as has been suggested.
The consequence of breaking parallel , at least from going DOWN some is already noted. The result of going UP is not.

I'll try to keep this short.
You lowered your car and it doesn't wheelstand as much. When the center of gravity is lower in relation to the rear axle the car will not transfer weight as easily.
Did you lower the front at the same time?
I expect the solution can be found in the front suspension. How much travel? How much stored energy? What is your front spring rate?

I'm assuming your car is still a stick. Have you made any clutch changes? How hard does it hit the tires on the starting line? Do the tires slip or dead hook? Does the rear suspension squat, or lift?

Raising or lowering the center of rotation (ladder bar eye) primarily affects the reaction of force applied to the rear tires.
Lengthening the center of rotation affects the point of lift in relation to the longitudinal center of gravity, not an option for your ladder bars.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

I'll try to keep this short.
You lowered your car and it doesn't wheelstand as much. When the center of gravity is lower in relation to the rear axle the car will not transfer weight as easily.
Did you lower the front at the same time?
I expect the solution can be found in the front suspension. How much travel? How much stored energy? What is your front spring rate?

I'm assuming your car is still a stick. Have you made any clutch changes? How hard does it hit the tires on the starting line? Do the tires slip or dead hook? Does the rear suspension squat, or lift?

Raising or lowering the center of rotation (ladder bar eye) primarily affects the reaction of force applied to the rear tires.
Lengthening the center of rotation affects the point of lift in relation to the longitudinal center of gravity, not an option for your ladder bars.

Very good post.Hope to see more.

[joespanova]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

I'll try to keep this short.
You lowered your car and it doesn't wheelstand as much. When the center of gravity is lower in relation to the rear axle the car will not transfer weight as easily.
Did you lower the front at the same time?
I expect the solution can be found in the front suspension. How much travel? How much stored energy? What is your front spring rate?

I'm assuming your car is still a stick. Have you made any clutch changes? How hard does it hit the tires on the starting line? Do the tires slip or dead hook? Does the rear suspension squat, or lift?

Raising or lowering the center of rotation (ladder bar eye) primarily affects the reaction of force applied to the rear tires.
Lengthening the center of rotation affects the point of lift in relation to the longitudinal center of gravity, not an option for your ladder bars.

Nothing has changed except the ride height in the rear..........IIRC.
Mark seems to know you................?

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by joespanova

Nothing has changed except the ride height in the rear..........IIRC.
Mark seems to know you................?

No, I don't, but he seems to know something about chassis (plural) and suspensions

[jerry witzel]

On my 68 Camaro the front of the ladder bars are angled downward, it always leaves with the wheels up. The 66 Nova I used to own had the front of the bars angled up when I first bought it and it had no adjustments. I had a guy weld new brackets on it and angled the front of the bars downward. The first race with it like that it broke 1 rear shock and cracked both upper shock mounts. I was always under the impression that with them angled downward it would leave harder. I do know that front and rear ride height can really effect weight transfer.

[carbuilder]

Originally Posted by jerry witzel

On my 68 Camaro the front of the ladder bars are angled downward, it always leaves with the wheels up. The 66 Nova I used to own had the front of the bars angled up when I first bought it and it had no adjustments. I had a guy weld new brackets on it and angled the front of the bars downward. The first race with it like that it broke 1 rear shock and cracked both upper shock mounts. I was always under the impression that with them angled downward it would leave harder. I do know that front and rear ride height can really effect weight transfer.

if you tore up shocks and or brackets,, you were most likely either bottoming out or topping out the shock itself

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by joespanova

Nothing has changed except the ride height in the rear..........IIRC.
Mark seems to know you................?

Thanks for the compliment Mark.
Actually Joe we might, I have made more than a few passes at Atlanta Dragway a couple of decades ago.

As I recall your car is more of an "old school" setup. A lot of folks used to basically lock the front end down and didn't pay attention to the quality of the (limited) front end travel.

The front end needs to be (very) free to travel, the springs need to contain a lot of stored energy to allow the weight transfer to take place, and the shocks need to control the rate of reaction. Then you can control the height of the wheelstand (if need be) with front end travel.

I'll enclose a picture. This truck was built as a super stocker, with ladder bars and coil overs, they upgraded the front end components and got this result.
I haven't seen it on scales, but it's pretty nose heavy. No big chunks of lead in the back of the truck.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

Thanks for the compliment Mark.
Actually Joe we might, I have made more than a few passes at Atlanta Dragway a couple of decades ago.

As I recall your car is more of an "old school" setup. A lot of folks used to basically lock the front end down and didn't pay attention to the quality of the (limited) front end travel.

The front end needs to be (very) free to travel, the springs need to contain a lot of stored energy to allow the weight transfer to take place, and the shocks need to control the rate of reaction. Then you can control the height of the wheelstand (if need be) with front end travel.

I'll enclose a picture. This truck was built as a super stocker, with ladder bars and coil overs, they upgraded the front end components and got this result.
I haven't seen it on scales, but it's pretty nose heavy. No big chunks of lead in the back of the truck.

Good info above. Also, I always remove the teeth from the ends of a new set of upper control arm bushings, and put longer bolts through them, ground to length to bottom out, that come out just tight enough I can rotate the big washer, but no end play. If you pick up the control arm & ball joint (not connected the the spindle, of course) and drop it without it falling back down, it is too tight. I lube the inner shaft with a good moly lube, since the bushing will now be rotating on the shaft. Drilling the bolts for a grease zerk, with a cross drilled hole makes keeping them lubed and moving freely won't hurt. Did all this back in the 1960s with my old '56 Chevy Jr Stocker. Zero track prep back then, and 7" tires. You get creative. My present car is done the same way. It does not know a slick track.
Also, back off the lower control arm inner shaft bolts a bit. Everything (IMHO) should move freely. Longer coils, wound from smaller diameter wire for more stored energy. Shocks controlling how fast they move, travel limiters (Mine are cables) controlling how far they move, it should hook anywhere. Controlling, not trying to do, wheel stands will be your new pastime. Front shocks are a big deal. don't cheap out. There is a big difference there. Look into Santuf shocks. And, having an Eastexas race car doesn't hurt anything.

[joespanova]

OK
Thanks for the replies. Tom , yeah its "old school"............but old school is still OK. I have already applied most of what you are saying over the years , but its good to bring it up again.
Don't forget though ,like I said this car WAS very wheel stand prone and I wanted to tame it down. The ride height change was more cosmetic with the side effect of virtually eliminating wheel stands. I just didn't expect it. So without going back where I was I tried recovering some of it ( by applying what was suggested "Tom" ) just to get the car to work the way I wanted it to. Without much success.
As I got under the car today I see the top hole ( front ladder bar ) , which is 1 hole above the current location , was never used and I'd have to beat the floor pan a little to get the bar in that top hole. So I decided to lower the housing 1 hole on the floaters instead......that C/G thing should be applied here.
Ed , I did use moly lube and yep they slide easier...........I was reluctant to use it because it attracts dirt.

[joespanova]

OK......
Finished.......that change made the azz end sit exactly 1 inch higher. This should be interesting........I'll follow up in a week or so.