Just a jealous "cheap shot"

[DRAKE VISCOME]

Hey Pete...for sure I am on-board with the "importance" of winning class/trophy @ National event...I am...one lucky guy...in this life...so imagine...been there...done that...more than once (told ya' am LUCKY)...lol...presently trying to accomplish same for our twin boys...far-far fewer class events...so in this imperfect world...just yet another hurdle...a tall one too...the level playing field you speak of...is "dreamworld" mentality...it's never been "level" per se'...at least in my "few" years of involvement in sport of drag racing (1958 forward)...most of my years...were beyond the stock/super stock "realm" (category)...silly me thought great place to start with our boys...whoa' Wilbur...have found any success...doesn't happen ez...at all...!!!...the week to week competition/circuits...are tough...really tough...let alone Divisional/National event stuff...amazing...so for me...I'm here to tell you...I'm not counting on someone (NHRA-IHRA) making/creating a level playing field for me...purr-fection...surely would be welcome...kind of akin to Catherine Zeta Jones...knocking on my door to "socialize" this evening...lol...U get the idea !!! Drake p.s. as you say...most of us on this "site" not exactly doing this as a business...it's whatever enjoyment we embrace from our participation..nothing more...nothing less...!!!

[4406mopar]

How about the 1986 C-10 and its HP rating history? Why nobody crying about that one?

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by 4406mopar

How about the 1986 C-10 and its HP rating history? Why nobody crying about that one?

We have, ancient history. Three were built(that I can recall) and all three were really fast and got the HP factor hit by the AHFS(as it should be). But it was a one body style combo not dozens of different combos spread out over 10 years differentiated by one digit in a casting number or a tenth of a point in compression or .010 valve lift.

[Rory McNeil]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

We have, ancient history. Three were built(that I can recall) and all three were really fast and got the HP factor hit by the AHFS(as it should be). But it was a one body style combo not dozens of different combos spread out over 10 years differentiated by one digit in a casting number or a tenth of a point in compression or .010 valve lift.

Just to set the record straight if you are refering the the 2 barrel Ford 302 Billy, over the years there was considerable differances, flat top pistons with bigger combustion chambers on the 78 & newer 302s, dished pistons with smaller chamber heads on earlier engines, different deck heights,14 vs 18 mm spark plugs, stud mount cast iron rockers on 77 and earlier, stamped rockers with "bolt down" pedestal rockers 78 onward, small carb boosters on earlier engines vs large clunky annular boosters on later engines, differences in number of crankshaft counterweights and external balancing (28 vs 50 OZ imbalance .muliple different intake manifolds, , with or without EGR provisions etc. Not "all the same" stuff by any means.I am NOT saying the 2 barrel 302 is not rated soft, I just have to wonder if there would be so much uproar if somebody dug thru the GM classification guide and found some obscure combo with a low HP rating or factor, or if that racer would have "just done his detective work and was a smart cookie for using the guide to his advantage." Maybe the whole thing is a diversion to draw attention away from all the factory built and available new "Big 3" factory race cars, you know, like the Powerglide and Ford 9" equipped Camaro, Challenger and Mustangs that bear little resembalance to the actual street cars they supposedly represent, in equipment, weight, or HP ratings.

[DRAKE VISCOME]

Hey Rory...my fellow Ford guy...have loved you from afar...for many years...lol..."the" Rory knows his stuff...!!!...hope all well for you...in ALL ways possible...!!! Drake

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

Just to set the record straight if you are refering the the 2 barrel Ford 302 Billy, over the years there was considerable differances, flat top pistons with bigger combustion chambers on the 78 & newer 302s, dished pistons with smaller chamber heads on earlier engines, different deck heights,14 vs 18 mm spark plugs, stud mount cast iron rockers on 77 and earlier, stamped rockers with "bolt down" pedestal rockers 78 onward, small carb boosters on earlier engines vs large clunky annular boosters on later engines, differences in number of crankshaft counterweights and external balancing (28 vs 50 OZ imbalance .muliple different intake manifolds, , with or without EGR provisions etc. Not "all the same" stuff by any means.I am NOT saying the 2 barrel 302 is not rated soft, I just have to wonder if there would be so much uproar if somebody dug thru the GM classification guide and found some obscure combo with a low HP rating or factor, or if that racer would have "just done his detective work and was a smart cookie for using the guide to his advantage." Maybe the whole thing is a diversion to draw attention away from all the factory built and available new "Big 3" factory race cars, you know, like the Powerglide and Ford 9" equipped Camaro, Challenger and Mustangs that bear little resembalance to the actual street cars they supposedly represent, in equipment, weight, or HP ratings.

Sooooo you're saying that you wouldn't have a problem with telling NHRA that they should split the 302s at 1977/78 and just consider them 2 different combos instead of dozens?
I like the "diversion" angle. Conspiracy theory huh?

[goinbroke2]

So, I'll just throw this out there...
Participation from 2bbl fords was non existent (might as well say) couple 351c 2bbl and a couple 302 2bbl's, but really, non existent.
Someone put the hp back to factory to encourage participation and damn, did it work. Now there are a "hand full" of 302's running (some new, some not) and the AHFS is slowly correcting them as it was supposed to.

Not correcting fast enough you say? Well, what happened when you got hit with any other vehicle? You add weight or swap years/body/etc. What is different other than it's a FFFFord as some call it? I've seen guys cut taillight panels out of dusters because the different lights for different years, was that not done because of a favourable rating??
The 86 chev truck was mentioned and while there was some complaining, it was no where near what the fords have caused. They got hit and weight added, don't tell me that if a different year with a low rating was available you wouldn't of seen grills or front end swaps going on.

So because fords are available for so many years and so many combo's, that justifies the outrage? Well that's like the argument that aluminum heads (and a lot else) is available for sbc but less for everyone else and chev guys continually say "not my fault they're more popular" How about the fact that ford heads in general have terrible flowing exh ports, and others say "not my fault they don't flow like chev's"

I can have sympathy the guy who has run a certain combo and cannot change classes (Ron and Jack) and is getting the ****ty end of the stick on this one. I agree, it sucks. But it doesn't suck any worse than having a one year car (83mustang GT) that has ****ty heads/low lift flat tappet cam and is rated at 200hp when an 85 with a different nose gets a roller cam with more lift and much better heads..at 205hp. Swap noses you say, sure, if you want to run an 85. Point is, nhra has many issues, at least these fords (like so many others) will eventually get hp. If nothing else, somebody will have to keep swapping bodies/heads/intake/etc as they get hit.

Personally I'd love to see the oddball combo's (307, 304, 318, 283,289,273,290,318poly,348,352,361) but if they were all lowered, you couldn't just yell about the 289's and 352's because they were fffords.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

So, I'll just throw this out there...
Participation from 2bbl fords was non existent (might as well say) couple 351c 2bbl and a couple 302 2bbl's, but really, non existent.
Someone put the hp back to factory to encourage participation and damn, did it work. Now there are a "hand full" of 302's running (some new, some not) and the AHFS is slowly correcting them as it was supposed to.

Not correcting fast enough you say? Well, what happened when you got hit with any other vehicle? You add weight or swap years/body/etc. What is different other than it's a FFFFord as some call it? I've seen guys cut taillight panels out of dusters because the different lights for different years, was that not done because of a favourable rating??
The 86 chev truck was mentioned and while there was some complaining, it was no where near what the fords have caused. They got hit and weight added, don't tell me that if a different year with a low rating was available you wouldn't of seen grills or front end swaps going on.

So because fords are available for so many years and so many combo's, that justifies the outrage? Well that's like the argument that aluminum heads (and a lot else) is available for sbc but less for everyone else and chev guys continually say "not my fault they're more popular" How about the fact that ford heads in general have terrible flowing exh ports, and others say "not my fault they don't flow like chev's"

I can have sympathy the guy who has run a certain combo and cannot change classes (Ron and Jack) and is getting the ****ty end of the stick on this one. I agree, it sucks. But it doesn't suck any worse than having a one year car (83mustang GT) that has ****ty heads/low lift flat tappet cam and is rated at 200hp when an 85 with a different nose gets a roller cam with more lift and much better heads..at 205hp. Swap noses you say, sure, if you want to run an 85. Point is, nhra has many issues, at least these fords (like so many others) will eventually get hp. If nothing else, somebody will have to keep swapping bodies/heads/intake/etc as they get hit.

Personally I'd love to see the oddball combo's (307, 304, 318, 283,289,273,290,318poly,348,352,361) but if they were all lowered, you couldn't just yell about the 289's and 352's because they were fffords.

I'm going to guess that your post is directed at me. There's no yelling going on here about the people who are racing this combo. The title of this thread is "just a jealous cheap shot". I have met and spoken to the top 3 qualifiers from Indy over the last few years and I would hope that they know that I was more making light that bi*ching about the subject. There IS a problem with the way that they get factored too but both of these issues are the fault of NHRAs "uneven" handling of these situations. Just as an example, I'll use my 307 because it's the closest thing that I have to the 302. Not because I'm bi*ching but because it fits a factual situation.
Someone asks Pat C. for HP back on the 2V 302s. With good reason, they needed it. He (apparently on his own) gives all of the "net HP" factored 302s back their original "net" HP ratings and he probably should have. To my knowledge, no one has ever gotten one "hit" with HP before the time that they were arbitrarily refactored. The problem with him doing that is that he set a precedence that they/he won't now adhere to. The 307 fits the same scenario,never hit, just assigned a new factor. BUT, when I requested HP back on the 307, suddenly the situation has changed. It gets back 3 HP. OBTW, it's "net HP" factor is 130. I think that "liberals" call that discrimination.
Almost every 350/2V Chevy is different from year to year from flat to dished pistons, different size carbs, different head and intake numbers and yet they are considered the same by NHRA. Why is that?
Trust me, I truly am in favor of the 302 FFFords getting their HP rolled back. I hope that 100 get built. I AM NOT in favor of the way NHRA creates rules and and sets a precedence and doesn't follow them.
Can we talk about LD340s now?

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

So, I'll just throw this out there...
Participation from 2bbl fords was non existent (might as well say) couple 351c 2bbl and a couple 302 2bbl's, but really, non existent.
Someone put the hp back to factory to encourage participation and damn, did it work. Now there are a "hand full" of 302's running (some new, some not) and the AHFS is slowly correcting them as it was supposed to.

Not correcting fast enough you say? Well, what happened when you got hit with any other vehicle? You add weight or swap years/body/etc. What is different other than it's a FFFFord as some call it? I've seen guys cut taillight panels out of dusters because the different lights for different years, was that not done because of a favourable rating??
The 86 chev truck was mentioned and while there was some complaining, it was no where near what the fords have caused. They got hit and weight added, don't tell me that if a different year with a low rating was available you wouldn't of seen grills or front end swaps going on.

So because fords are available for so many years and so many combo's, that justifies the outrage? Well that's like the argument that aluminum heads (and a lot else) is available for sbc but less for everyone else and chev guys continually say "not my fault they're more popular" How about the fact that ford heads in general have terrible flowing exh ports, and others say "not my fault they don't flow like chev's"

I can have sympathy the guy who has run a certain combo and cannot change classes (Ron and Jack) and is getting the ****ty end of the stick on this one. I agree, it sucks. But it doesn't suck any worse than having a one year car (83mustang GT) that has ****ty heads/low lift flat tappet cam and is rated at 200hp when an 85 with a different nose gets a roller cam with more lift and much better heads..at 205hp. Swap noses you say, sure, if you want to run an 85. Point is, nhra has many issues, at least these fords (like so many others) will eventually get hp. If nothing else, somebody will have to keep swapping bodies/heads/intake/etc as they get hit.

Personally I'd love to see the oddball combo's (307, 304, 318, 283,289,273,290,318poly,348,352,361) but if they were all lowered, you couldn't just yell about the 289's and 352's because they were fffords.

GB2, I came back to respond to your post and now I see Billy already has.
Once again, it's not A FORD issue..It's a fairness issue.
All 302, 307, 305 , 304, 318 , 350 2 bbls ..or none!
Why should other makes have to fight for 2-3-4 HP reductions, when the 302 , 2bbls got a blanket reduction to net factory HP, across all model lines and about 10 year's worth? Okay, got it now?

[JHeath]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

I'm going to guess that your post is directed at me. There's no yelling going on here about the people who are racing this combo. The title of this thread is "just a jealous cheap shot". I have met and spoken to the top 3 qualifiers from Indy over the last few years and I would hope that they know that I was more making light that bi*ching about the subject. There IS a problem with the way that they get factored too but both of these issues are the fault of NHRAs "uneven" handling of these situations. Just as an example, I'll use my 307 because it's the closest thing that I have to the 302. Not because I'm bi*ching but because it fits a factual situation.
Someone asks Pat C. for HP back on the 2V 302s. With good reason, they needed it. He (apparently on his own) gives all of the "net HP" factored 302s back their original "net" HP ratings and he probably should have. To my knowledge, no one has ever gotten one "hit" with HP before the time that they were arbitrarily refactored. The problem with him doing that is that he set a precedence that they/he won't now adhere to. The 307 fits the same scenario,never hit, just assigned a new factor. BUT, when I requested HP back on the 307, suddenly the situation has changed. It gets back 3 HP. OBTW, it's "net HP" factor is 130. I think that "liberals" call that discrimination.
Almost every 350/2V Chevy is different from year to year from flat to dished pistons, different size carbs, different head and intake numbers and yet they are considered the same by NHRA. Why is that?
Trust me, I truly am in favor of the 302 FFFords getting their HP rolled back. I hope that 100 get built. I AM NOT in favor of the way NHRA creates rules and and sets a precedence and doesn't follow them.
Can we talk about LD340s now?

Billy, Just build a 2bbl 302 FFFord.