Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Guys, I am trying to send photos of my conversion of John Dianna's Delivery to my 150 2dr. wagon I ran against Barkley for class at the 1970 us nationals. I used a pg with the same 2 x 4 motor John used. I did not change rear end or anything as I was a first time racer. I admit I drove off idle and never tried to stall it or changed converters.
I did buy bigger adjustable stahl headers and picked up a couple. George Supinski and then others ran it at 13.60s in florida at the Gators.... Try for his details from 1970 or 71. Val Hedworth was fast with a wagon also.

Thanks Dick, the hydramatic vs powerglide cars are quite a story.
I found this pic of Dianna's Delivery vs Garey in 1968 in case you had missed it:
http://www.doverdragstrip.com/phpBB3...=2027&start=10


Good thread too.

[bill dedman]

Deuce coupe...

Here is a copy of a post I wrote back in 2007 that may help you with your article., The thread it comes from (one from December, 2007) has lots of posts from knowledgable people whose posts you might want to investigate.

This is my contribution to that thread:

"NHRA allowed the 4-speed HydraMatic in Chevy sedan deliveries and El Caminos from about 1964 until they pulled the plug on all the "Dual-Range" 4-speed HydraMatics somewhere arounf 1972 or '73....not sure of the exact dates.

Nomads were just fancy station wagons and had to run Powerglides, like a sedan.

How they ever got approved is not exactly known; I heard that some guy from California, who was a close friend of a Division Tech Director (perhaps, Div. VII), had a 348-powered Stocker that was an El Camino, and was licensed as a truck in California. He supposedly convinced this Division Tech guy that since it was licensed as a truck, it should be allowed to use a truck transmission. Chevy trucks at that time,didn't use Powerglides... they had 4-speed HydraMatics. I don't know how much of that story, if any, is true, so, please don't quote me. It was a l-o-n-g time ago...

This was during a period of time when torque converter science was in its infancy. It was very difficult, if not impossible, to get a decent hi-stall converter for a Powerglide transmission.

The NHRA rules at the time, allowed virtually any engine in the Blueprint Specs to run in virtually any body, so it was legal and feasible to run a 283 c.i.d., F.I. 283 horsepower motor in a '57 Chevy sedan delivery, for example, with a 4-speed HydraMatic tranny. These transmissions had a fluid coupling instead of a torque converter, and were very easy to modify for high stall speeds.

The news of this transmission, its superior performance, and its across-the-board legality in Chevy "trucks" (sedan deliveries and El Caminos, included), spread like wildfire, and soon, they were populating every class from about E/SA down to N/SA, whicjh was the bottom "automatic." class for V8's at the time (16 pounds per hp???)

At one point, they held virtually every record from E to N... with "host" vehicles ranging from '55 Chevy sedan deliveries with 4-bbl "Power Pack" 265s in N/SA (high 14's) up to '57 Chevy F-I- 283/283hp sedan deliveries, running mid- 13's in E/SA.

I remember a letter-to-the-editor of National DRAGSTER from the wife of the driver/builder of "BIG DADDY": (not Garlits), a '60 Buick convertible G/SA Stocker from Lafayette, Indiana (Russ Matthews) who announced that her elderly husband was giving up trying to compete with these "fantasy cars" that were never built by the factory. He'd been a national record holder for years with his 401/nailhead/Dynaflow Buick, but the sedan deliveries made his car uncompetitive. So, he was quitting. She just wanted everyone to know why.

I think that letter MAY have precipitated some action...

It wasn't too long after that, that NHRA bit the bullet and disallowed that "truck" transmission in sedan deliveries and El Caminos.

The reason they were disallowed is that NHRA finally (albeit, tacitly) admitted that the Chevy factory never put that transmission in passenger-car based vehicles. It was in pickups, panel trucks, and larger Chevy trucks, but NEVER in sedan deliveries (or, El Caminos.)

I built one of the first ones to hit the strip in 1965, and I remember pouring over Chevy parts books, trying to find motor (rear) mounts that would fit the engine/tranny and the sedan crossmember.

No go; they had mounts for Powerglides in sedans, and mounts for Hydros in Pickup trucks, but NOTHING for a Hydro-to-sedan cross-memeber (which is what the sedan delivery had... because it was, in essence, just a station wagon with 2 doors.)

So, like everyone else, I had to build my own... LOL!

With the advent of Marvin Ripes' (and, others') new hi-stall Powerglide converters, it soon became a moot point, anyway.

This whole deal was a major embarrassment for NHRA, and one that I'm not sure they'll ever live down. It's been 35 years since they pulled the plug on the hydros in the sedan deliveries, and people still talk about it...

You'd think they would have learned something about the bogus legalization of "never-never" combos..."

I hijacked the thread... it was originally about the NHRA legalizing 4-speed manual transmissions in '55 (and, later) Chevies.

This is a link to that earlier thread: http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=8410

Hope this helps!

[Rich Biebel]

NHRA knocked out all combinations that were never built or offered as regular production line combinations.....this included hydro equipped SD's. I think it was after the 1968 season.

'57 Chevy's could not use 4 speed transmissions anymore since they were only offered in Corvettes. 3 speed manual or P/G

'62 Plymouth same deal.....383/343 could not run a 4 speed....3 speed manual or auto...

Lot's of other combinations were disallowed.......

[Freddie Cain]

Deuce Coupe,Please check your private messages.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

NHRA knocked out all combinations that were never built or offered as regular production line combinations.....this included hydro equipped SD's. I think it was after the 1968 season.

'57 Chevy's could not use 4 speed transmissions anymore since they were only offered in Corvettes. 3 speed manual or P/G

'62 Plymouth same deal.....383/343 could not run a 4 speed....3 speed manual or auto...

Lot's of other combinations were disallowed.......

I thought all that was way over due. I could not understand those being legal to begin with.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Deuce coupe...

Here is a copy of a post I wrote back in 2007 that may help you with your article., The thread it comes from (one from December, 2007) has lots of posts from knowledgable people whose posts you might want to investigate.

This is my contribution to that thread:

"NHRA allowed the 4-speed HydraMatic in Chevy sedan deliveries and El Caminos from about 1964 until they pulled the plug on all the "Dual-Range" 4-speed HydraMatics somewhere arounf 1972 or '73....not sure of the exact dates.........

This is a link to that earlier thread: http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=8410

Hope this helps!

Bill,
Thanks for that old Dec.2007 link:
Great history on transmissions & NHRA.
I gather from your comments:
1. Nobody drag raced a TurboGlide (or very few & not for long), fairly easy to see.
2. On the Roto / SlimJim - why was it so slow, isn't it just a simpler Super/Jetaway 2-coupling Hydramatic?
3. I had assumed folks like Lloyd & Carol Cox (61-62 Ventura/Cat) would have run the Roto, cant find that info, do you know? Or did they run the bigger-car Super Hydramatic?


Good pics of Lloyd & Carol & Cars:
http://www.dragracingonline.com/feat..._11-cox-1.html

[bill dedman]

1. The problem with a Turboglide was, it held the engine at about 3,500 rpm until it was going about 75 mph... Only then, after it was in 3rd gear (1:1) would the rpms start increasing. A small block Chevy doesn't make much power at 3,500 rpm... so, no, not many people ran them...

2. The Slim Jim was a 3-speed automatic that suffered from having one too few gears; it acted like a 4-speed automatic that was missing second gear... the large rpm drop from 1st to second was excerbated by the fact that second was a direct (mechanical) application of engine torque (had no power going through the fluid coupling) so there was no "slip" at all,and this droppped the rpm even further.. not a good thing.

2. I don't know which transmission the Cox cars ran, but if I had to guess, I would imagine that they all ran the two-fluid-coupling, 4-speed transmission; the Slim-Jim was too fragile and slow to be effective.

Oldsmobile called that big-car transmission "Jetaway HydraMatic", while Pontiac called it "Strato-Flight HydraMatic"..... same transmission. I have never seen either referred to as a "Super HydraMatic."
Sorry I don't know more about the Cox cars... but, I seem to remember that the Cox race cars were always high-performance versions, and as such, would not have come with the Slim Jim boxes.

[jimmyparker]

Reference the 70/71 Records, I have one little tidbit that reminds us what communication was like in the "old days". I set the O/S record at the Gainesville Div II race in '71 at around 13.45, tore down and was really happy to get the record. What I didn't know was that Bruce Wilkinson set it the same weekend in Bowling Green at 13.41 or so. I got my certificate but it never hit ND which was a big deal back then. I had a 220hp '66 Belair Two door sedan and Bruce was running his '56 wagon at that time.


Jimmy Parker

[Rich Biebel]

The automatic transmissions and converter or fluid coupling issues were a very big deal back then and why manuals were preferred. "Slush Box" was a popular term...I had a '58 Pontiac with an automatic trans and raced it a little. It was my Street car and I also used it as a tow car. Trans went and I had it rebuilt by a racing buddie. Shifted to hard after the rebuild. Those transmissions failed often if raced.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by jimmyparker

Reference the 70/71 Records, I have one little tidbit that reminds us what communication was like in the "old days". I set the O/S record at the Gainesville Div II race in '71 at around 13.45, tore down and was really happy to get the record. What I didn't know was that Bruce Wilkinson set it the same weekend in Bowling Green at 13.41 or so. I got my certificate but it never hit ND which was a big deal back then. I had a 220hp '66 Belair Two door sedan and Bruce was running his '56 wagon at that time.


Jimmy Parker

I had the same thing once. Set both ends of the N/S record with my '56, tore down for Red Anderson (I was just a kid, and scared to death of him.), the Ronca Bros set both ends
the same weekend in div 1. I got the points, nothing else. I set the ET record two more times. I never could run the MPH those guys ran.