ceramic bearings

[Pvt Parts]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

A) I never see a Dana break & I see 9" break. I've been through 3 different gear sets & they always look like new.
B) Bearings are going to be the same one way or another.
C) I'm pretty sure the frictional loss is greater on a 9".
If I were into changing gears a lot, then a 9" would wipe out the other reasons.

No Comment.

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Pvt Parts

No Comment.

I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.

[BlueOval Ralph]

This load vs losses has alot of holes it really depends on how input load you are using (no load vs 500 lb-ft) at no load a 9 inch would show more lose than say 500 lb-ft the 9" has less then as the whole gear Assm is locked down pinion has god front carrier bearings bad a pinion tail support the spool has the billet caps and the solid spanners. If I were building a new 9" center today I would use the High strengh steel case that Strange has and Ford the NASCAR teams are using these cases about 2 to 3 lbs lighter than the Nodular but a little maybee 8 heavier than alum. But everything will stay in place and not move!


QUOTE=Jeff Lee;288933]I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.[/QUOTE]

[Ed Wright]

I knew I wanted a 12 bolt over a 9", but am surprised at the Dana 60. Still a lot of un-sprung wt.

[Rory McNeil]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

I knew I wanted a 12 bolt over a 9", but am surprised at the Dana 60. Still a lot of un-sprung wt.

Maybe not as much differance as you might think. On my mid-low 10 second, 3200 lb bracket car, I used to have a fairly basic 9" (unbraced OE housing, OE Ford "N" case, 33 spline Strange axles & steel spool). About 11 or 12 years ago, I decided to switch the car from a trans braked 3 speed automatic (C6 Ford), to a Jerico 4 speed. A buddy builds diffs for a living, and suggested that my existing 9" was marginal with the stick, and after comparing the cost to upgrade my 9", (new braced housing, aftermarket case, 35 spline spool & axles), we elected to sell the 9" and go with a Dana 60. The housing is a thick tube 3/4 truck core, with Ford ends, 35 spline Strange spool & axles, billet bearing caps, and aT/A load bolt cover. I used the same brake as the 9" had. Weight difference? The Dana was 6 lbs heavier, BUT, if I had went with a steel aftermarket case, braced the housing, and added the larger axles and spool to the 9", it would have likely added at least those 6 lbs. So pretty much a draw. Now granted, an aluminum case, and fabricated sheetmetal housing would have reduced the 9" a fair bit, but then if I had replaced the Danas heavy truck axle tubes to chrome moly tubes, ...., but this is just a bracket car, so why bother? The only downsides I see are the 9" does have a much better selection of gear ratios available, and if you have the $$$ laying around to have multiple complete "chunks" on hand, obviously gear changes are faster & easier. That said, when my buddy did a ratio change on the Dana in his shop, the old 4.88 Pro gears still looked perfect after 10 seasons of 62-6600 RPM clutch drops, and they were used when I got them! I have no regrets with the Dana 60 swap. By the way, I was able to sell my complete old 9" for enough to pay for the Dana.

[Jeff Lee]

At one time I ran 4.88's in my AMX. I bought the R&P used from John Dourlet who had literally hundreds of runs on them behind his A/S '64 Savoy Max Wedge car. The looked perfect when I got them and when I changed to steeper gears in my X, they still looked perfect.
I do have CM axle tubes, MW caps, and back-cut ring gear along, MW lite-weight steel spool with and a T/A cover. I remember when Don Little changed out the 8 3/4 in his 'Cuda to a Dana 60 when he put the Hemi in it, he only picked up about a dozen pounds.

[69Cobra]

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

This load vs losses has alot of holes it really depends on how input load you are using (no load vs 500 lb-ft) at no load a 9 inch would show more lose than say 500 lb-ft the 9" has less then as the whole gear Assm is locked down pinion has god front carrier bearings bad a pinion tail support the spool has the billet caps and the solid spanners. If I were building a new 9" center today I would use the High strengh steel case that Strange has and Ford the NASCAR teams are using these cases about 2 to 3 lbs lighter than the Nodular but a little maybee 8 heavier than alum. But everything will stay in place and not move!

Can you run an aftermarket Nodular case in Stock? I just got off skype from talking to my dad about putting together a new third member so I'm just wondering?

[Jeff Lee]

Yes.

[69Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

Yes.

Thanks. That opens up some options for me.

[Damn Yankee]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.

Putting together a class car where we are restricted to 8.8 or 9" Ford. Well, we can use a 7.5 too but I am really question the strength so I am not even considering it. Most everyone runs the 8.8 as it said to be more efficient than a traditional 9". However, gear ratio choices are limited and there are also no 8.8 pro gears. Have made a few calls to Wayne at Indy Gear, M/W's, and others who believe the 9" is the better route. Question is, can I make the 9" as efficient or better than the 8.8 using ceramic bearings in the pinion support, and in the carrier ?