Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??

[Lew Silverman]

No one is saying that there shouldn't be change. Change is inevitable.

What some of us are saying is "make the changes FAIR!" If we've let a group of vehicles compete with an unfair advantage, as some of us believe, then the situation needs to be corrected. Lowering the index's doesn't do it, it only moves the mis-factored car's higher on the list. Fix the problem created with the unrealistic horsepower factors first!

Lew

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Lew Silverman

No one is saying that there shouldn't be change. Change is inevitable.

What some of us are saying is "make the changes FAIR!" If we've let a group of vehicles compete with an unfair advantage, as some of us believe, then the situation needs to be corrected. Lowering the index's doesn't do it, it only moves the mis-factored car's higher on the list. Fix the problem created with the unrealistic horsepower factors first!

Lew

Actually, I am saying there shouldn't be change. The class itself should not be fundamentally changed. Stock Eliminator was never intended to have purpose built race cars as part of the class. It's really simple. You can't mix production street driven combinations with purpose built race cars. There was a time when NHRA knew this. Purpose built factory race cars were put in Super Stock or Factory Experimental classes, where they belonged.

Face the facts here. You cannot properly factor purpose built race cars to make them work in Stock Eliminator.

First off, the last thing we need is 6.0 pound per HP cars on 9" tires running 8 second elapsed times in Stock Eliminator. Even at 7.0 pounds per HP, if they were to do that, you'll soon have 3700 pound cars on 9" slicks running 8.90 ET's. Why? Because the index for the 7.0 class is going to get set really low, because they want to go really fast, and NHRA apparently has no qualms at all about giving them what they want.

Further, what they'll really want, and they've already asked for, is 6.0-6.5 pound classes. That's Super Stock A and B territory. Think about that for a minute. It took a full ten years, and a new class a half pound per HP lighter, for Stock Eliminator to go from Bobby DeArmond's legendary 9.99 in A/SA to a few cars in AA/SA running in the 9.50 zone. And two tenths of that five tenth ET drop came from taking 200 pounds out of the cars. Now we have A/SA cars running 9.50, and they're sandbagging.

Second, so long as the factory can "make" any car or engine they want with a pen and a piece of paper, you can't keep them factored. The AHFS barely works as it is, often only working at Indy for class. Read the rule: OEM may apply for inclusion of ANY SPECIAL PRODUCTION RUNS into the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedence. Every year, they can simply make minor changes, and get a new factor.

Factory race cars need their own class, just like they had for years. Stock Eliminator is not that class. Sure, new cars should be in Stock Eliminator. New production showroom available cars. Stock Eliminator needs to return to the original concept.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

OEM may apply for inclusion of ANY SPECIAL PRODUCTION RUNS into the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, [COLOR=Red]need not be showroom available.[COLOR=Black] Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedence.

IMHO, that is the worst thing that NHRA ever did to Stock Eliminator!

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

IMHO, that is the worst thing that NHRA ever did to Stock Eliminator!

Agreed. It fundamentally changed the entire character and premise of the class. That is exactly what I mean when I say Stock Eliminator is not Stock Eliminator any more. That rule completely changed the class. Stock Eliminator, as we knew it, ceased to exist the day that rule was written.

[BadBanana]

"There was a time when NHRA knew this. Purpose built factory race cars were put in Super Stock or Factory Experimental classes, where they belonged."

You made some good points (high hp cars on small slicks - dangerous !!!) but drew some poor conclusions.
The above statement wasn't exactly true. When it all started in the early 60s there was only Stock Elim. Super Stock was a class in it. In '62 the top class in Stock Elim was Super Super Stock (413 Chryslers, 409 Chevys, 406 Fords, 421 Pontiacs) They were limited to 7" slicks; and drew the crowds. When they ran Top Stock Elim. at the '62 Nationals it was the top Stock cars, including SS/S cars. When they ran the Elim. there were even some A/S cars in it..

The point that JHeath makes is very valid. If you don't come up with a way to co-exist in Stock Elim. and "give it up", you will lose your Eliminator.
Figure it out. Take your concerns and figure them out; but don't exclude the future or you will lose - guaranteed !!!
Form a Stock /Super Stock association and work out the details to everybody's (well almost everybody's) satisfaction with some give and take, and get it ALL hashed out and written up and signed by everyone and then present the package to NHRA, in a way that will benefit them, as well.
for a small example - give the new 7 lb. classes 10 " slicks for their class only.
Why in the world would you care - as long as the handicap is correct from your class to theirs ???

[davidhuff]

Give me a break,do you guys actual think a 1969 camaro nhra stocker resembles any thing that ever came off a Chevy dealer showroom floor(after market blocks,after market pistons,high dollar acid prepared heads and intakes,metric trans,after market light front brakes,after market ignitions and the list goes on.Stock my ***!

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by BadBanana

"There was a time when NHRA knew this. Purpose built factory race cars were put in Super Stock or Factory Experimental classes, where they belonged."

You made some good points (high hp cars on small slicks - dangerous !!!) but drew some poor conclusions.
The above statement wasn't exactly true. When it all started in the early 60s there was only Stock Elim. Super Stock was a class in it. In '62 the top class in Stock Elim was Super Super Stock (413 Chryslers, 409 Chevys, 406 Fords, 421 Pontiacs) They were limited to 7" slicks; and drew the crowds. When they ran Top Stock Elim. at the '62 Nationals it was the top Stock cars, including SS/S cars. When they ran the Elim. there were even some A/S cars in it..

The point that JHeath makes is very valid. If you don't come up with a way to co-exist in Stock Elim. and "give it up", you will lose your Eliminator.
Figure it out. Take your concerns and figure them out; but don't exclude the future or you will lose - guaranteed !!!
Form a Stock /Super Stock association and work out the details to everybody's (well almost everybody's) satisfaction with some give and take, and get it ALL hashed out and written up and signed by everyone and then present the package to NHRA, in a way that will benefit them, as well.
for a small example - give the new 7 lb. classes 10 " slicks for their class only.
Why in the world would you care - as long as the handicap is correct from your class to theirs ???

First, we're talking about Stock Eliminator as it has been for about 40 years, with Super Stock (oddly enough where the Hemi powered factory race cars went as soon as they were released) as an entirely separate class. The Stock Eliminator that 90% of the people discussing this have been in for years.

Which of the 409 cars were factory race cars, limited production? The closest would be the 63 Z-11. The 406 Fords were limited production? The Mopars? Those were production cars sold in volume to the general public. But we're not talking about stripped down muscle cars sold to the general public you could drive home from the dealer anymore.


Who said anything about not allowing new cars? New cars are fine. Try to convince Ford of that, by the way. Find a new Ford production Mustang in the guide after 2008. Good luck with that. I hope they bring in every new combination Ford GM and Chrysler sell for street use to the general public, and put every single one of them in the guide, they belong there.

The new factory race cars are great, I like them. Some of my good friends own them. They belong on the drag strip. But they belong in their own class. Honestly, they need an F/X class, with 10.5 slicks, their own factors, their own weight breaks, with their own indexes, and their own safety regulations, so they can really show their true performance. They really need to be on 10.5" slicks, with weight breaks starting at 6.0 or 7.0 up to about 9.0, with full 12 point cages, and indexes starting out at around 9.70 or 9.90, low enough that they can go out and race, instead of sandbagging to protect their factors.

Showcase the new cars, let them really run, let them really fight it out. If you had a few F/X classes, with 1 pound weight breaks, you'd have 32 cars or so going fast, with plenty of hard core heads up races, low ET's, big MPH, and a great show.

[Chris Barnes]

Once again, Alan is the man.

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

First, we're talking about Stock Eliminator as it has been for about 40 years, with Super Stock (oddly enough where the Hemi powered factory race cars went as soon as they were released) as an entirely separate class. The Stock Eliminator that 90% of the people discussing this have been in for years.

Which of the 409 cars were factory race cars, limited production? The closest would be the 63 Z-11. The 406 Fords were limited production? The Mopars? Those were production cars sold in volume to the general public. But we're not talking about stripped down muscle cars sold to the general public you could drive home from the dealer anymore.


Who said anything about not allowing new cars? New cars are fine. Try to convince Ford of that, by the way. Find a new Ford production Mustang in the guide after 2008. Good luck with that. I hope they bring in every new combination Ford GM and Chrysler sell for street use to the general public, and put every single one of them in the guide, they belong there.

The new factory race cars are great, I like them. Some of my good friends own them. They belong on the drag strip. But they belong in their own class. Honestly, they need an F/X class, with 10.5 slicks, their own factors, their own weight breaks, with their own indexes, and their own safety regulations, so they can really show their true performance. They really need to be on 10.5" slicks, with weight breaks starting at 6.0 or 7.0 up to about 9.0, with full 12 point cages, and indexes starting out at around 9.70 or 9.90, low enough that they can go out and race, instead of sandbagging to protect their factors.

Showcase the new cars, let them really run, let them really fight it out. If you had a few F/X classes, with 1 pound weight breaks, you'd have 32 cars or so going fast, with plenty of hard core heads up races, low ET's, big MPH, and a great show.

Dont forget the lower classes these things have invaded like J, K, L. Lets not stop at 9 pounds per HP unless NHRA gets the HP factors right.....Yeah.....FAT CHANCE of that happening.

[Pvt Parts]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

IMHO, that is the worst thing that NHRA ever did to Stock Eliminator!

Here's the rest of it..... And one of the best things they ever did for their pocketbook.