Why do we continually use the super classe as track testers?

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Nitro Joe Jackson

Because they know you Super class guys want to go 200 mph and are nuts on those stupid timers (which should be outlawed) and if, I say if Super classes did not have timers and went back to the old style throttle stops we would cut down big time on crashes. I know, I'm a broken record but damn it, it's the truth.

Joe,
Almost 24 years ago, I was sitting in the lounge of the Holiday Inn, across from the "New Atlanta Dragway". Lex Dudas was working for NHRA, and he was sitting at the next table. He said "we ought to take every delay box and every throttle stop in the world, pile them up, I'll run them over with a bulldozer and we'll set them on fire." I'm not sure it wouldn't have been a good idea.

We were running two dragsters in Super Comp that weekend. We saw a guy in the lanes fire his S/C dragster up in reverse and back all the way up to the roll cage of the car behind him. The rear end would have been in the driver's lap. The next week, we all had to have neutral safety switches.

[Michael Beard]

This isn't about classes. The track was junk for a lot of cars in a lot of classes, and it's more than a shame to take a mostly sunny 60 degree day, ball up a couple of cars and send people home.

[Rich Biebel]

I am not sure I see the correlation between delay boxes and throtle stops and how their use has anything to do with a car that starts up in gear and the driver loses control of it!

I have been racing since the old days and I am talking the mid 60's....

Cars crashed then too. Stockers crashed and there was no .90 cars and no delay boxes or t-stops. 7" tires on narrow rims with low air pressure.....NHRA made believe it wasn't happening.....

Todays cars are way faster and have way more HP then ever and the t-stops and timers allowed this to develop but it is not the only reason cars lose control.......

Water under the track is percolating up to the surface and somehow the traction compound is making it worse is my thought on this. Seen it a lot of times in the last few years and I really don't know why it has gotten worse in the last few years.....

All tracks send cars out on the track and use them as guinea pigs....Nothing new whatsoever and I can relate numerous events where track conditions were not right and we were directed out there anyway.

I have helped a number of people get started in racing....One thing I always preach......you are in charge of yourself and your car. If it looks unsafe out there and cars are not getting down the track.....don't make the run!!! It's your safety and your car and missing a run or a round is way better then crashing because the officials THOUGHT things were ok.....

Joe Sway is about the hardest working track owner you'll ever see and knows his track.....He explained to us earlier this year how he gets the track to hook and did exactly that when we had a tree pollen attack! I am really surprised he and his crew and Bob Lang and crew couldn't get the track to be safe......

I sure am glad I skipped this event!!!

[Jack McCarthy]

someone would have to let me know if a track was marginal... ive never spun

jack

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

I am not sure I see the correlation between delay boxes and throtle stops and how their use has anything to do with a car that starts up in gear and the driver loses control of it!

There is none, you just attempted to see something that was not there. The comment about the driver backing over the dragster behind him was merely a part of the anecdote.

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

Todays cars are way faster and have way more HP then ever and the t-stops and timers allowed this to develop but it is not the only reason cars lose control.......

But to ignore this as a prime reason is to avoid addressing a major portion of the problem, especially given the original post was a complaint that directly addressed their power and throttle stops. When you apply 800 to 1000 HP or more to a coasting, unloaded car, 300' down track where there is less traction, if the track is not good, you're going to blow the tires off. If you have 800-900HP, and can run 9.90 or 10.90 at 150-160MPH, when your tires break loose in high gear, they're going to spin up to about 160MPH. If you aren't going straight, or the traction is not equal for both tires, you're going to hit the wall, the only question is left or right. It's a simple matter of physics. Ignoring simple physics will get you hurt.

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

Water under the track is percolating up to the surface and somehow the traction compound is making it worse is my thought on this. Seen it a lot of times in the last few years and I really don't know why it has gotten worse in the last few years.....

The problem in most cases is the fact that races end up being run on tracks that have been rained on for 1-3 days, and then get prepped in less than one. You simply cannot expect to consistently and successfully prep a track that has had every bit of the rubber washed off of it for 1-3 days, as well as having the oil forced up out of it, in anything less than a day or more. And if any rain falls on it again, during that prep or right after, expect the track to go away again. There are tracks where water comes up through the track, but that is not the problem everywhere, or even at most tracks.

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

All tracks send cars out on the track and use them as guinea pigs....Nothing new whatsoever and I can relate numerous events where track conditions were not right and we were directed out there anyway.

I have helped a number of people get started in racing....One thing I always preach......you are in charge of yourself and your car. If it looks unsafe out there and cars are not getting down the track.....don't make the run!!! It's your safety and your car and missing a run or a round is way better then crashing because the officials THOUGHT things were ok.....

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

Joe Sway is about the hardest working track owner you'll ever see and knows his track.....He explained to us earlier this year how he gets the track to hook and did exactly that when we had a tree pollen attack! I am really surprised he and his crew and Bob Lang and crew couldn't get the track to be safe......

I sure am glad I skipped this event!!!

I don't really see it as a big surprise. It has nothing to do with how hard Joe Sway or Bob Lang work, or how conscientious they are, and they are great people. It's simply a matter of what can and cannot be done. Heavy and constant rain will take the rubber off of a track, what little is left behind is a hindrance to traction, and the rain is going to bring up all of the oil that is in the track, and leave it right there on the surface. Once that happens, the only way to consistently and reliably get a good racing surface is to scrape and scrub, getting the old left over rubber and the oil off before you even begin to try to put down traction compound or drag rubber on it. If you don't, you end up with a smear of oil and bad rubber with traction compound on top of it.

[Charlie Yannetti]

It was a terrible weekend for D1 at Atco.. no doubt about it.. is there fault, or where does it lay, isn't really the issue..

Being a D1 racer attending this race, I can honestly say that Atco Raceway and Bob Lang and the rest of his staff tried and did everything they could to get this event in.. why the track was like it was is a mystery to me.. I watched as Joe Sway and his guys put down rosen and dragged the entire track surface at one point.. the track was scraped, dragged, and sprayed numerous times.. the jet was out on the track whenever it was thought necessary.. but it just seemed that nothing held up early in the day, or as evening set in.. could it be the cooling winds coming down the track thwarting the efforts of the jet??.. I don't know, but maybe.. could it be a difference in past and present traction compounds being used.. I don't know, but probably has something to do with it.. but there needs to be a reason, an answer, and a solution..

Is it me, or have track conditons over the last two seasons deteriorated??.. what is different in the track prep equation.. that's a starting point.. I've been told that there is a different traction compound that requires additives and proper mixing.. could this be the problem??..

WHATEVER!!!.. somebody has to fix something..

On Friday night, after raining for most of the day, it was anouced that the Sportsman program would be called to the lanes.. I watched S/ST car after S/ST car get loose when the stop came off, or on the shift point.. I opted to put my S/G car back in the trailer.. there is no penalty for not making a run if you don't feel right about it..

WE "ALL" HAVE TO STOP RACING WHEN IT IS NOT SAFE!!!

[Alan Roehrich]

Rock and his partner bring up some great ideas.

The problem I see with a set procedure is that a set procedure ignores the differences in the tracks themselves, and there's no way to get all of the tracks to one spec for the racing surface.

That one problem makes it difficult, if not impossible, to have any sort of single set procedure, or even a set single traction compound.

We cannot ignore the differences in the tracks anymore than we can ignore the differences in weather conditions.

We also cannot ignore the cars and where the wrecks are happening, and it isn't just the .90 Super classes and their throttle stops, it's also the Top Dragster, Top Sportsman, and Pro Mod classes. A lot of what we are seeing is problems that happen when you apply a lot of power down track. The reality is that while there may be better traction down track than there was even ten years ago, there are a lot more cars applying a lot more power further down track than there were.

As far as prep that is biased towards the fuel cars goes, I'm not sure how this relates to Atco this past weekend, or for that matter the many Lucas races that have seen this type of problem in the recent past. Further, NHRA has admitted, after the Pro Stock guys called them out on it, that most of the "fuel prep" bias is that they don't spray past 1000'. Hardly an issue to a car that gets out of shape at 300'.

It is the truth that will help solve the problem. And what must be done is the racers must get together and go as a group to NHRA, and firmly remind them of their original motto and slogan. It can't be just one group, it has to be all of the sportsman racers.

[Greg Hill]

There is a difference in traction compounds being used at different tracks. This summer at Bowling Green the track was awesome even with 100 degree temps and probably 130 plus track temps. You could walk out on the starting line and it would just about pull your shoe off at any time. This past weekend at Ohio Valley traction was okay but not great. I saw a fair amount of people spin. I didn't go out on the track but other people told me there was no sticky on the starting line. When you looked at the rear tires on different race cars they were very smooth with nothing stuck to them after a run. I was told that Ohio Valley was using VP traction compound which I'm also told doesn't work that great at cooler temps. The old VHT mixed 50/50 with alcohol was always great at any temp.

[John DiBartolomeo]

First of all, there was something going on with the track surface at Atco that no one could understand. I've never seen that track surface look like that in all the years and times I've been there. Both Joe Sway and Bob Lang did everything they could to "fix" the problem to no avail. I was the unfortunate "test dummy" Friday night to go down the track before they pulled the plug and I can tell you I thought I had a Top Fuel dragster and the clutch malfunctioned because when I came off the stop, the tires went right up in smoke. I walked the track with Bob Lang and others immediately after the run and no one could understand the reason.

However, I believe there's a bigger issue here and that is driver safety. We've always crashed cars. I don't know the statistics but I wouldn't be surprised that there are any more cars crashing now then in any other year. My concern is that I don't care why the car crashed (obviously I care and want to know why), I just want to make sure the driver walks away. We're always going to crash cars. This is racing and it's dangerous. But we have to assure that the driver can walk away, something Tom Giordano wasn't able to do Saturday night for whatever reason. There are investigations into all accidents and I'd like to know why the results aren't known. When Woodro Josey ran into Lake Gainesville (or whatever that was), shortly thereafter there was a Tech Directive telling us to check our brake pedal rods. Why can't this be done with every crash? I don't want to hear about legal anything. We're dealing with lives here. This to me is the bigger issue. As I said, cars will crash, tracks will be junk, parts will break. We just have to find a way to make sure the driver is able to get out without injury.

[CBS]

I was only posting a letter I got......any car on an unsafe track is an issue.....Stop with the throttle stop stuff....its about the track....

The point is maybe we can get some data together that may lead to a base standard of track conditions.....

"We have been looking at track preparation issues all season long.
There are definitely steps that can be taken to improve things. Please see the attached letter from my racing partner who is an engineer at Roush.

In response to the point about a minimum track temperature, we have made good runs on tracks that had temperatures as low as 54 and made bad runs on tracks that were 65 or more. Unfortunately there is not just one measure of track adhesion quality. Your grip meter torque device idea is sound, although it is going to take time to build a database to determine what torque and what track position will work for most cars. One S/C car at Atco runs over 200 mph, what track criteria does he need? I sure dont want to make that call.

As far as the Division Director in this case, Bob Lang, sipping coffee in the tower, Bob was on the track dealing with the traction issue all event long.

My racing partner spoke with the Atco track owner Joe Sway, when we were leaving, and Joe was heartbroken that they could not come up with a solution to the traction issue. I feel like they put the best effort possible to provide a suitable race track, but ultimately could not.

Here is My partners letter......

Observations regarding track preparation

Forward:
This seasons most popular topic of discussion has been track preparation. Have adjustments to the track prep procedure been made in an attempt to minimize tire chunking in the fuel classes? Sportsman racing postponed at Phoenix. Super Comp cars not able to negotiate the right lanes at Charlotte. More sportsman crashes than many can remember. Perhaps the risk and liability of the fuel cars blowing a tire have caused changes to be made. But it is undeniable. Something has changed. There is a new fuel tire now, and conditions at Topeka were excellent. Perhaps the issues have been fixed. Even if there has been a change in the formula or application of the traction compound there are a number of procedures that could lead to more consistent and equally performing lanes.
In today’s industry and business world, procedures are everything. ISO compliance is mandatory. Why? So the results are predictable and repeatable. The following is a series of observations and facts from attending National events and discussions with racers, track operators and the guys actually preparing the track(s).

There are a huge number of variables to deal with when it comes to track preparation.

Weather variables;
Temperature, wind, sun, humidity and rain.

Track surface variables;
Paving surface finish, amount of aggregate, concrete mixture, amount and type of rubber on the surface along with how well it is adhered. Bumps, ruts and transitions add another dimension to the equation.

Track preparation variables;
1) Sweeping with the tractor: It is not uncommon for the tractor to drive 100’ downtrack with the sweeper brush down and rotating, then lift the sweeper, turn around and head back to the starting line. Where does the pile of debris go?
How to resolve this issue?
a) Sweep both lanes only in one direction, toward the starting line and through to beside the water box.
b) Run the vacuum truck to vacuum up the pile left by the tractor.

2) Dragging with the tractor(s): The dragging process appears to be done with consistency, but the process may be flawed. In most situations the tractor driver alternates directions between lanes, and may always go toward the water box in the left lane and away from the water in the right lane. Imagine the rubber that is adhered to the track surface as small flakes, these flakes are folded back to the starting line by the action of the rotation of the rear tires during the course of a run. By running the drag in the direction of the track, these microscopic flakes may actually be “stood up” or torn off during the dragging process. In some cases two tractors are used. How can you be certain that the pressure on the drag is the same?
How to resolve this situation?
a) Drag both lanes in only one direction, opposite of the direction the cars run.
b) If two tractors are used, alternate lanes between track prep sessions.

3) Application of traction compound, (spray) downtrack: The speed and direction of the wind have a marked impact on the amount of the spray that is applied. You can see a visible difference in the “wetness” of the application dependant on the direction the spray is applied. Almost always, the spray is applied up one lane and down the other.
How to resolve this issue?
Spray both lanes only in one direction, in the direction that yields the maximum product to track ratio.

4) Application of traction compound, starting line: The wind also has an impact on the spray applied by the manual sprayer. There are many inconsistencies in this manual application process.
How to resolve this issue?
Pay closer attention to ensure even application. Put procedures in place.

4) Traction compound:
a) There are many questions as to the formulation and consistency of the product.
b) There are multiple variables in the mixing of the traction compound by the end user(s). The type of reducing agent (solvent/thinner) can vary as well as the mixing ratios being varied based on relative humidity. The actual mixing process is often done in the tank mounted on the sprayer, with no means to insure a homogenous mixture.
c) There is no method in place to measure the actual ratio of traction compound to reducing agent prior to application. A portion of the reducing agent can evaporate in a “batch” that has been sitting for only a few hours.

How to resolve these issues?
a) Have the product periodically tested by an independent laboratory.
b) Set procedures for mixing criteria and change from using relative humidity to an absolute measure of water content in the air, like grains of water per pound.
c) Use of an electric drill driven mixer.
d) Put in place a system to measure the actual ratio of the traction compound and document each application.

The men and women of the Safety Safari work tirelessly to prepare the tracks for competition. Their efforts should be applauded, but I believe that it is time to stop and look at the track preparation procedures and get away from “that’s the way we’ve always done it” mentality.

Its time we had this discussion.....