DP #24 Engine failure....

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

I keep seeing coments about Scat rods. There is nothing wrong with them. I have used them for years, they came with ARP 2000 bolts. Never had to re-size one or correct the balance on a new one right out of the box. Never one single failure. Machining has always been dead nuts. I can't say that for Eagle and some others. Putting Manley rods in that one sure isn't going to cure anything. Valve to piston contact had nothing to do with that failure, nor did the rods.

I will agree....I dont know about the rods coming out of round. I have not seen that in person, These do not have the ARP2000 bolts even just the base 8740's

I am shocked at the fact the rods held and didnt break, for a budget engine I will definatley consider them.

I will say the machining is like you said "dead nuts" on myself and others were suprised at a 300$ set of rods would be this accurate.

One of the "issues" with the Scat rod it it requires the crank to be reground and journals widened to work.

The manley does not.

In addition the manley well....its a good rod, and good for 1000 hp in this series thats been proven in many other engines. I do know well never make that kind of power, but I cannot see a Scat rod (not the one we have) doing that.

We got the real "bargain basement" of the scat rods. Most everyone sells good, better best and bargain....we got bargain.

Im not bashing scat or dont mean to, the choice by whoever it was that this particular scat rod was chosen, and we were not given a choice ? Well that is were the real issue lies.

And the bolts, we were led to believe the bolts were different and the 2000 series...they are not.

Your right also we thanks to the help here have come to the conclustion netiher the rods or the PTV contact caused our failure, but rather the bolts if they didnt played a role. of the ones I personally took out 2 (1 on each journal) took another 20+ lbs of torque to get to their "stretch" and suggested torque range of 63 lbs.... yes 63 lbs...

Having to take a stock crank and have it machined JUST to run these rods....when I can take a set of Manleys and they will run on the stock 2.125 journal and are better, have much better bolts and the same bearings HN, HXN, and more undersizes are available ? Well it makes sense to me anyway.

K1 is getting an H beam approved, that may be an option down the road, but isnt now, and when it will ? At least 6 weeks away according to Tom over at K1

Chris

[Rich Biebel]

It is a basic engine....really nothing out of the ordinary. Bore/stroke/crank pins/rod length/piston and rod weights.......all similar to hundreds or thousands of engines........The design/sizing/parts are not unusual.....The heads are a bit different than a wedge or a porcupine like a BB Chev or a Cleveland Ford.......but nothing really out of the ordinary in the bottom end.

So, the diagnosis is simply that an overly agressive burnout led to an rpm that caused the rod bolts to break???..........

What exactly was the problem with the first engine? I don;t recall hearing any details of that one....

And what about the valve issue where the heads were pulled and fixed by the Pro Stock engine builder. Had some sort of dragging valve issue and hit a piston ???.......

Personally I don' t see anything all that unusal in the bottom end.

Shouldn't be all that hard to make one stay alive........


P.S. I have an SFI diaper on my dragster......Makes me feel a lot safer at 170.........I also have 2 sets of brakes and a parachute.........

If you ever oiled your tires up from a blown engine you'll be wishing you had a diaper......

I did lose and engine in low gear and was fine, then a little voice in my head said go over on the grass so you don't slop up the racetrack.......not a good idea....came within inches of tagging the guardrail......

Grass next to the racing surface was another bad idea......luckily I did not hit anything......

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

So, the diagnosis is simply that an overly agressive burnout led to an rpm that caused the rod bolts to break???..........

What exactly was the problem with the first engine? I don;t recall hearing any details of that one....

And what about the valve issue where the heads were pulled and fixed by the Pro Stock engine builder. Had some sort of dragging valve issue and hit a piston ???..........

#1 Pretty much......with really crap bolts I may add, ARP lists them for STREET use....

#2 Well it was several problems that were a combination of people faults, ours included to some degree, but Ma Mopar well she took care of it in stellar order for us , even having me up to Stantons to see the motor Dynod, dissasembled, inspected, checked and re-assembled....as well as some other work they were nice enough to include. Thats all that matters on that one to us.

#3 That was MY issue, there was a binding on one of the rocker collar retainer shims against a rocker shaft stand. Or a very good possiblity of a lock condition between the keeper and the rocker Clearance was a bit tight (on a NORMAL engine its only about .060 there on a DP about .040 , and on ours with the moly retainers we "tried" well it was a possiblity. Changed retainer, changed shim clearances and it hasnt resurfaced, even the head guy agreed it was probably a "combination" issue with those 2 items.

I like the thought of a diaper, saftey equiptment dosent scare me in the least, Ive landed on my head on a motorcycle several times at odd angles between 70-100 mph and walked away (ok not always walked away) but something to be said for saftey gear....

AND on our car the clearance around the engine would be fine with it.

The only thing that worries me is oil temp...thats it.....but till I use one I wont know I guess.....I like the "Pan" idea better because well....a)it looks trick b)its got an airgap and a place to but my hotplate pan warmer c)Im used to it, and I cant pull the pan without pulling the motor, so it would just fasten on then and I could put a trapdoor in the bottom. Just me being me I guess...

[Rich Biebel]

Chris we share a lot of info and it's good........some that has nothing to do with racecars but more about things that happen and go wrong.....and it does happen all the time......

You refer to 2 wheeled stuff a lot and I can relate to that.....as I mentioned my son is a 2 wheel enthusiast....and has always been.....

I always worried about him getting hurt on 2 wheels....and he has wrecked and been hurt. Usually on bicycles not motorcyles!. Lets see...there was the time he got his fingers tangled up in the chain and that one really sucked for me as well as him, cause I was in the ER as the doctor worked on his fingers....... I almost went out on that one! Whew! Then there was the time he went over the bars on a mountain bike race and got a stress fracture of the arm....no biggie there......and last year he collapsed the spokes on a bike and broke a finger and had a shoulder issue as well.....all no big deal in the big picture kind of view.....

BUT one night on the way home from a questionable night out ??? He flipped his Toyota pickup near his home and climbed out of the overturned truck.....Waited fror the police.....told them a deer jumped in his path and he steered hard to avoid the deer and went over and landed with the drivers door down......He went home in some mild pain in the neck and shoulders....he was in pain all night and his wife urged him to go to the ER....good thing she did cause he had a broken neck at C-5 and could have easily been parylized. He was immobilized for 3 days........Neurosurgeons fixed him up and he was home with a neck collar and recovered fine....

So I know all about how stuff happens and hopefully things turn out good.....they sometimes do.......

Racing mishaps are usually just time, money and parts and maybe some disappointment..........

You can get this thing running right......It's just a motor!!!

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Wow.....I tell you I cant imagine how you felt, I being a parent, well my sons condition was like that from birth, thats just what we were dealt and it never bothered me. BUT my ex wives still say Im the worst "mother hen" there is when it comes to my kids.

I cant imagine the hell I put my parents through, or my ex wives. Ive done stupid things to myself and its like eh...ok...whatever 40 stiches here or there Ill be good as new, or skull fracture eh....but its me, I cant imagine....

Its a damm good thing us hard heads have someone to talk sense to us like your daughter in law. He and you are very fortunate.

People say I blame myself for everything I cant Identify and thats why Im a believer in everything that happens to me is my fault, its from bikes, from a very early age my father had me building my own bikes from the ground up , age 9, not briggs minibikes, but factory Aermacchi racers. I always had a soft spot for Italian bikes, always will. AND we were buying em cheap after Harley folded and sold Aermacchi New in crates .... lol.....BUT Every single accident or failure on one wether it be from broken parts, bad wrenching, running something marginal , who can I blame , the cat ?

All these failures were in some way , in the end all my fault, I didnt check on the bolts, I took it that they were something else like at least 2000's but nope...whose fault, MINE for not checking dammit, I should have known too....I should have when they told me the spec was 63 lbs...come on but I was distracted and it didnt register.

Im "optimistic" it will happen good because Im too stubborn and stupid to give up, ever.......Until I have a moment of "ultimate satisfaction" in cars that hard.....very hard, thats why I got out of them long ago. On a bike it was "easy satisfaction" and well......fast and fun, but healing when you get old aint so much fun, that was a BIG reason I quit screwing with bikes, it took me 6 months to heal and my shoulders will never be right (or the permanent dents in my skull, they dont make skull dent pullers apparently) Like this is somehow SAFER in my mind I have no idea....but well......actually it scares me more in a bad spot you dont clear your wreckage.....

Im still having "thoughts" about my son racing after his "close calls" last year, almost flipping a Jr. because well he got too comfortable. And the second because well, someone else was on fire on the return road and he broke uptop I was there alone so all I see if fire , people running, and smoke and him not at the slip shack, at 40 my golf cart still wasnt fast enough, that gives me chills just thinking about it.

BUT he wants to and hes 13, and an old 13.....

I have no idea how my Parents have survived me.....none.....my heart isnt so strong lol...

My biggest frustration right now is not being able to take 2 motors with me. Maybe it comes from the bike thing, I mean whenever I built a combo I built a complete spare and carried a 3rd complete setup apart. Its not so easy with cars the stuff is big and heavy

And the more I think about it the more I think thats where I get my cavalier irreverance for blowing up and breaking things. On bikes they fail often, for 1 running a 40 year old vintage magnesium Grimeca 4 shoe drum that swisscheesed to hell and back well....they break, or anything else.....sucks to eat 800 bucks but it was worth it while it was on there.

I guess cars and their motors arent supposed to be like that, and I can see that, for us I guess we expect it. I was told long ago, you can be fast, or you can be bulletproof, you cant be both.

But I will take a good look around, and I have looked to Doug Duell, hes not had a failure and hes running as fast as anyone (or faster) and well.....

Well get it right, sometimes Im more worried about what to do when that happens...........

Thanks Rich

Cheers

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

Chris we share a lot of info and it's good........some that has nothing to do with racecars but more about things that happen and go wrong.....and it does happen all the time......

You refer to 2 wheeled stuff a lot and I can relate to that.....as I mentioned my son is a 2 wheel enthusiast....and has always been.....

I always worried about him getting hurt on 2 wheels....and he has wrecked and been hurt. Usually on bicycles not motorcyles!. Lets see...there was the time he got his fingers tangled up in the chain and that one really sucked for me as well as him, cause I was in the ER as the doctor worked on his fingers....... I almost went out on that one! Whew! Then there was the time he went over the bars on a mountain bike race and got a stress fracture of the arm....no biggie there......and last year he collapsed the spokes on a bike and broke a finger and had a shoulder issue as well.....all no big deal in the big picture kind of view.....

BUT one night on the way home from a questionable night out ??? He flipped his Toyota pickup near his home and climbed out of the overturned truck.....Waited fror the police.....told them a deer jumped in his path and he steered hard to avoid the deer and went over and landed with the drivers door down......He went home in some mild pain in the neck and shoulders....he was in pain all night and his wife urged him to go to the ER....good thing she did cause he had a broken neck at C-5 and could have easily been parylized. He was immobilized for 3 days........Neurosurgeons fixed him up and he was home with a neck collar and recovered fine....

So I know all about how stuff happens and hopefully things turn out good.....they sometimes do.......

Racing mishaps are usually just time, money and parts and maybe some disappointment..........

You can get this thing running right......It's just a motor!!!

[mtkawboy]

Hang in there, its been forgotten by now but there was a very large learning curve to keeping 428 Cobrajets alive in stock & especially SS for years.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by mtkawboy

Hang in there, its been forgotten by now but there was a very large learning curve to keeping 428 Cobrajets alive in stock & especially SS for years.

Im going to "cross post" this to 2 threads related...

What yall think about these mains ?

[Peter Ash]

Normal?

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Peter Ash

Normal?

I would agree since they are new. What this leads to is an error in a prior conclusion where I "THOUGHT" I saw bluing on the bearings of motor #1 the pics really dont do the blue justice, it looks bright as gun blue. while the brown is crispy looking.

That said not seeing this coating before quite these colors and with taper to the blue that looks to me like its from heat. And to me, and on some others is quite in line with a rotational bluing, it also appears at the edges of the bearings most frequent.

In motor #2 the bluing is left in the parting areas where the bearings had not worn and it looks suspect, the mains as well a mix of blue and brown like that with pretty good dyno time and say 10 passes as well as some other part runs....the coating is still evident in large swaths.

So Im taking all my conclusions on "appearance" with the exception of actual surfaces with a microscope and throwing them away.

Just thought I would share it.

[mtkawboy]

That looks like heat prior to bearing spinning, prior to the rod breaking, prior to a hole in the block with a rod sticking thru it. Remove intake & valve covers, toss rest in dumpster {428}. That was an oiling problem in them. Dont know anything about these new motors except they haul as#