Lencos in SS

Kris · 10-28-2009, 09:26 AM

Hopefully "clutchless" is allowed. There is no et/mph advantage by having one. The major advantage is cost. The cost to run a stick is through the roof and going clutchless alleviates alot of the expense. If there is no performance edge it should be allowed. Might make things more economical to hopefully allow more people to run a stick

LB Racing 3179 · 10-28-2009, 05:15 PM

I agree with Jim. SS/ Modified and Modified Stock are giving up 250 lbs to the automatics and need a clutchless trans to compensate for the weight break. These are the only classes that alow that on the same index. All other automatic classes in Comp and SS have seperate indexes. Besides most stick cars are not using the clutch anyway.

Dinsdale · 10-30-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kris

Hopefully "clutchless" is allowed. There is no et/mph advantage by having one. The major advantage is cost. The cost to run a stick is through the roof and going clutchless alleviates alot of the expense. If there is no performance edge it should be allowed. Might make things more economical to hopefully allow more people to run a stick

Wrong on all accounts. A "clutchless" trans is quite a bit more expensive than a clutch type one and both require the same clutch setup. If there was no ET advantage, why do most of the guys abuse their clutch type trannies by not clutching. I don't see where you think clutchless will be cheaper. I don't think they should be allowed in Stock or S/S and Lenco's definately NOT!! The excitement went out of Pro Stock the day they allowed Lenco's.

tj310 · 10-30-2009, 08:30 PM

Dale thank you for sharing the video I take it you are in B.C.? We are looking at a new trans now Jerico lists $250 more for a clutchless I hear they hold up better which should cut down on maint. cost. Did you see how hard Schachter had to pull the shifter that shoulder strain will lead to expensive surgery! because we live in Canada with free health care it's of no concern to us. By the way at Indy open tech checked our car for clutchless . Thanx Trevor

SuperStockDodge · 10-30-2009, 09:06 PM

I'm with you Dale

I'm sorry, but i can't just let my left leg lay there while i'm banging gears. I don't know, maybe it's all about that number and not having fun and going rounds? If you have a clutch pedal stop, correct free play and are coordinated with a manual transmission, i don't see how it can be that much faster (for me) than shifting without the clutch and i can't justify the extra stress/damage on the (clutch assisted) 4-speed. I pull it out of the car enough as it is! LOL

427_ED · 01-03-2010, 07:59 PM

I'm all for a clutchless trans in SS "hood scoop" classes. Several have mentioned the extra cost. Most SS stick racers carry a couple of spare transmissions to every event, and change them during the event. Do Jerico or G-Force even build a clutchless 4-speed?

Jeff Lee · 01-03-2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 427_ED

I'm all for a clutchless trans in SS "hood scoop" classes. Several have mentioned the extra cost. Most SS stick racers carry a couple of spare transmissions to every event, and change them during the event. Do Jerico or G-Force even build a clutchless 4-speed?

Yes, both offer clutchless trannies.

Pvt Parts · 01-04-2010, 12:38 AM

Ok, here's my take on this issue. Maybe I can clear up a few of the misconceptions. I've run both stick combinations mentioned here in two different eliminators with great success so I'm giving information based on personal experience, not heresay or theory. I'm not "current" on the newest rules and technology, both of which have probably evolved but the complaints, issues and applications I see here are still the same.

G&G originally built the first low drag, "all roller bearing" nash 5 speed transmission for me with a custom made second gear ratio. It was the bleeding edge of development so you see I am partial to technological advancements. Back then, clutchless 4 and 5 speeds were available but not legal in SS. So, if you are wondering whether or not they are available now, the answer is yes, they will build anything you want in a standard or custom conifguration if you are willing to pay for it.

The advantage to using a 5 speed with 4 gears in Super Stock is that you can underdrive 4th and not be locked into a 1 to 1 high gear in order to achieve the optimal gearing for your combo, an option not available in a 4 speed box. I ran this setup in a 283 car with an underdriven high gear as will as a SS/A and B stick shift car with delay box, electric button release and pneumatically operated clutch pedal. I was also one of the first handful of (5 or 6) SS racers to use the 4 speed Jerico transmission. At the time, it was not available (nor could I run it in SS) as a clutchless unit. I showed the gearset to Dave Danish at the US Nationals tear down barn and he agreed that with the backcut on the faceplates, it would be next to impossible to make a clutchless gear change without a power interuption, thereby negating any benefit of a clutchless gear change with a "standard" transmission.

Over the years I've had clutch levers break causing the clutch to drag on the gearchange and I was lucky to successfully get the car into the next gear. So I'd be very skeptical of anyone who tells you that they are making gear changes in a legal Super Stock stick car without using the clutch. Even if they had modified the trans to shift that way, it would not be reliable enough or consistent enough to go the 5 or 6 rounds necessary to win a National Event. Bottom line: If you are gonna present yourself as a Stock or Super Stock stick shift driver, learn to drive. And I'd tell the automatic guys the same thing. NO tranny brakes, NO delay boxes, NO lock up converters.

Now, clutchless gearbox. (Jerico, G&G or Liberty) Definately faster, but like most changes in racing, the overall gain is not made with a single change. The biggest gain with this combo is in the bellhousing. If you're after every hundredth, a Racepak or similar computer is a must and you are gonna have to learn the clutch and chassis. In the end it will be faster, more consistent and easier on parts. And for NHRA, they won't have to worry about checking for clutchless gearboxes.

As a die hard stick shift driver (and having owned and driven both combos to National event wins) I can't consciously agree with letting the automatic guys have tranny brakes, delay boxes, auto shifters or lock up converters in Super Stock without allowing the stick shift drivers the same technological benefits. It simply doesn't present a level playing field for all of the competitors. I've been against automatic transmission gagetry ever since Bernie Agaman (spelling??) introduced the first tranny brake in Super Stock in his Corvette. It was a pneumatic
emergency brake drum looking contraption mounted on the output shaft of the tranny. I feel like.... if you are gonna drive a car in a race, then learn to drive. If you wanna play games with electronics and gadgets, then stay at home and race with your Wii.

Cost?? Well, the cars will go faster with clutchless transmissions. They won't be as violent, they'll be safer, and they'll be easier to drive. As for the guys already in Super Stock, short term costs will go up but I believe you'll be getting your money's worth in terms of performance and adaptability and you can sell all of your old stuff to the Stocker crowd. The increased cost puts entry level Super Stock racing out of reach for more new competitors. Personally, I'd like to see em take away all of the "gadgets" being debated in this thread so we can see how many real drivers there are out there. I think the fans would go for it too. After all, isn't that how this "sport" got started in the first place??

Kris · 10-31-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

Wrong on all accounts. A "clutchless" trans is quite a bit more expensive than a clutch type one and both require the same clutch setup. If there was no ET advantage, why do most of the guys abuse their clutch type trannies by not clutching. I don't see where you think clutchless will be cheaper. I don't think they should be allowed in Stock or S/S and Lenco's definately NOT!! The excitement went out of Pro Stock the day they allowed Lenco's.

By cheaper I was referring to overall maint. costs. I am aware of the initial purchase price difference, but my point was geared more towards being more economical in the long run. Much easier on parts.

Dinsdale · 10-31-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kris

By cheaper I was referring to overall maint. costs. I am aware of the initial purchase price difference, but my point was geared more towards being more economical in the long run. Much easier on parts.

Okay, easier on what parts? I would think the driveline shock would be worse due to less clutch slippage. Maybe the clutch will last a bit longer but with the right setup for your combo and adjusted properly they don't wear out that quickly. Routine maintenace is required on any race car and more so as the power goes up. My Jerico manual says clutch slippage on gear changes is mandatory to prevent trans damage. I know guys with 400+ runs on a Jerico and wonder if a clutchless trans would last that long. Not arguing with you here, just trying to learn something.

10-28-2009, 09:26 AM	#1
Kris Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Maine Posts: 49 Likes: 51 Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Lencos in SS Hopefully "clutchless" is allowed. There is no et/mph advantage by having one. The major advantage is cost. The cost to run a stick is through the roof and going clutchless alleviates alot of the expense. If there is no performance edge it should be allowed. Might make things more economical to hopefully allow more people to run a stick

10-28-2009, 05:15 PM	#2
LB Racing 3179 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 48 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Lencos in SS I agree with Jim. SS/ Modified and Modified Stock are giving up 250 lbs to the automatics and need a clutchless trans to compensate for the weight break. These are the only classes that alow that on the same index. All other automatic classes in Comp and SS have seperate indexes. Besides most stick cars are not using the clutch anyway.

10-30-2009, 08:30 PM	#4
tj310 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Dresden On. Canada Posts: 460 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Lencos in SS Dale thank you for sharing the video I take it you are in B.C.? We are looking at a new trans now Jerico lists $250 more for a clutchless I hear they hold up better which should cut down on maint. cost. Did you see how hard Schachter had to pull the shifter that shoulder strain will lead to expensive surgery! because we live in Canada with free health care it's of no concern to us. By the way at Indy open tech checked our car for clutchless . Thanx Trevor

10-30-2009, 09:06 PM	#5
SuperStockDodge Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stickville USA Posts: 261 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Lencos in SS I'm with you Dale I'm sorry, but i can't just let my left leg lay there while i'm banging gears. I don't know, maybe it's all about that number and not having fun and going rounds? If you have a clutch pedal stop, correct free play and are coordinated with a manual transmission, i don't see how it can be that much faster (for me) than shifting without the clutch and i can't justify the extra stress/damage on the (clutch assisted) 4-speed. I pull it out of the car enough as it is! LOL

01-03-2010, 07:59 PM	#6
427_ED Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Nicholasville, KY Posts: 265 Likes: 54 Liked 2 Times in 1 Post	Re: Lencos in SS I'm all for a clutchless trans in SS "hood scoop" classes. Several have mentioned the extra cost. Most SS stick racers carry a couple of spare transmissions to every event, and change them during the event. Do Jerico or G-Force even build a clutchless 4-speed?

01-04-2010, 12:38 AM	#8
Pvt Parts Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Avon, Indiana Posts: 327 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Lencos in SS Ok, here's my take on this issue. Maybe I can clear up a few of the misconceptions. I've run both stick combinations mentioned here in two different eliminators with great success so I'm giving information based on personal experience, not heresay or theory. I'm not "current" on the newest rules and technology, both of which have probably evolved but the complaints, issues and applications I see here are still the same. G&G originally built the first low drag, "all roller bearing" nash 5 speed transmission for me with a custom made second gear ratio. It was the bleeding edge of development so you see I am partial to technological advancements. Back then, clutchless 4 and 5 speeds were available but not legal in SS. So, if you are wondering whether or not they are available now, the answer is yes, they will build anything you want in a standard or custom conifguration if you are willing to pay for it. The advantage to using a 5 speed with 4 gears in Super Stock is that you can underdrive 4th and not be locked into a 1 to 1 high gear in order to achieve the optimal gearing for your combo, an option not available in a 4 speed box. I ran this setup in a 283 car with an underdriven high gear as will as a SS/A and B stick shift car with delay box, electric button release and pneumatically operated clutch pedal. I was also one of the first handful of (5 or 6) SS racers to use the 4 speed Jerico transmission. At the time, it was not available (nor could I run it in SS) as a clutchless unit. I showed the gearset to Dave Danish at the US Nationals tear down barn and he agreed that with the backcut on the faceplates, it would be next to impossible to make a clutchless gear change without a power interuption, thereby negating any benefit of a clutchless gear change with a "standard" transmission. Over the years I've had clutch levers break causing the clutch to drag on the gearchange and I was lucky to successfully get the car into the next gear. So I'd be very skeptical of anyone who tells you that they are making gear changes in a legal Super Stock stick car without using the clutch. Even if they had modified the trans to shift that way, it would not be reliable enough or consistent enough to go the 5 or 6 rounds necessary to win a National Event. Bottom line: If you are gonna present yourself as a Stock or Super Stock stick shift driver, learn to drive. And I'd tell the automatic guys the same thing. NO tranny brakes, NO delay boxes, NO lock up converters. Now, clutchless gearbox. (Jerico, G&G or Liberty) Definately faster, but like most changes in racing, the overall gain is not made with a single change. The biggest gain with this combo is in the bellhousing. If you're after every hundredth, a Racepak or similar computer is a must and you are gonna have to learn the clutch and chassis. In the end it will be faster, more consistent and easier on parts. And for NHRA, they won't have to worry about checking for clutchless gearboxes. As a die hard stick shift driver (and having owned and driven both combos to National event wins) I can't consciously agree with letting the automatic guys have tranny brakes, delay boxes, auto shifters or lock up converters in Super Stock without allowing the stick shift drivers the same technological benefits. It simply doesn't present a level playing field for all of the competitors. I've been against automatic transmission gagetry ever since Bernie Agaman (spelling??) introduced the first tranny brake in Super Stock in his Corvette. It was a pneumatic emergency brake drum looking contraption mounted on the output shaft of the tranny. I feel like.... if you are gonna drive a car in a race, then learn to drive. If you wanna play games with electronics and gadgets, then stay at home and race with your Wii. Cost?? Well, the cars will go faster with clutchless transmissions. They won't be as violent, they'll be safer, and they'll be easier to drive. As for the guys already in Super Stock, short term costs will go up but I believe you'll be getting your money's worth in terms of performance and adaptability and you can sell all of your old stuff to the Stocker crowd. The increased cost puts entry level Super Stock racing out of reach for more new competitors. Personally, I'd like to see em take away all of the "gadgets" being debated in this thread so we can see how many real drivers there are out there. I think the fans would go for it too. After all, isn't that how this "sport" got started in the first place??