little help with FWD

[Mark Yacavone]

Tim, that sounds like an awful lot of tire, height and width. Those tires will slow you down, all the way down the track. Not so much in the 1/8th though. Does it have a 3.73 final drive?

[tgriffith]

I have it VERY nose heavy and there is only about 1 inch travel in the back,,,,,,,,,,Im puzzled by a few thing on this car

1st-----it doesnt like the 20 tall tires,,,,,I have excessive spin and only about 67mph at the 1/8,,,,,the car seems to be quicker with the 24`s after the 60ft mark,,,,,,now Im sure that some is becasue of tire spin but with the 24`s,,,the MPH @ the 1/8 is nearly 70,,,,,,this also is at 2900lbs,,,,,,,,,the 1/4 MPH is @ 87 VS about 83 with the 20`s

now I know this isnt anything to write home about BUT this was at Bristol dragway,,,it ran 15.57,,,,,again, nothing to write home about but considering this is at bristol--.35 under is darn good for an actual stock motor with a cam

2nd---the 60 is way quick for the ET,,,,,,I could understand this IF this car was lite,,but it isnt,,,,,,,the digital MSD took a dump and with the stock computer, it isnt possible to retard the timing............I did try to find top dead center and mark it,,,,,threw a timing lite on it and it reads 40+ degrees at idle,,,,,,it goes to 50 at reving it up BUT I do want to POINT OUT,,,,this is very unreliable ( at best)---but it would explain all the short time ET and it not matching down track numbers

the gearing in the car ( I think) is only about an actual 3.40 or so with the 24`s,,,,,this is the actual tire size that came on the car--(215/60/14),,,,,,with the 20 tall tires,,gearing should be about 4.10,,,,,(.83% of actual size)---

After I had sold the car in 2002,,I had learned something I had did very wrong ,,,,,never thinking to try this again with a FWDer,,,put the info on the shelf and forgot about it,,,,

6 years later,,,I own the car again,,,,,so dug out notes and changed some things,,(about .30 worth),

last year at a test session,,,I was about the 5th or so pair out on a fresh sprayed track,,,,with the 20 inch tall tires,,,,,it slightly shuttered but had a 1.77 short time,,,,,,and needless to say,,,that was all of of that. Next pass, wouldnt pull out, and so on with the next 2 or so passes..,,,thats why I tryed the 24 tall tires,,,also with the 20`s on the only pass, it MPHed only 67......this was all at MM dragway in radford,,,,good track with no traction issues

with the 24`s ,,,,I had tryed 16lbs of air,,,,,.hooked fair,,,went to 18,,it was better,,,,went to 20lbs and seemed to hook better...all the numbers reflected it........the rims are stock and the 24`s, at the time, didnt seem to want to seat very well so I didnt go below the 16 mark with out drilling the rims for screws

examined the a-arms,,struts,,,the lower a-arms are alum,,,and are bent all to hell,,,,looked nearly warped

any help is needed,,,,tire pressure just may be way to high,,,,,,havent got any REAL info.....I had contacted the tire company and they said 22 to 24lbs,,,,,,,Im not going to swear to this but I think it says " do not inflate over 25psi"......whatever it was,,I got frustrated the tire company didnt have a clue

BUT,. over the years, in many racecars Ive learned that there is no "one size fits all" tire pressure number,,,,,I knew better even to waste time on the call, but was reaching....sometimes the biggest problem`s solution is the simpliest fix,,,,,,,

can I get away with about 10 or 12lbs of air on these 24`s ????..Is this my problem???.....the car performed absolutely awesome sat night UNTIL the track got marginal,,,,and that was all she wrote......


I appreciate all the help !!!!

[greg fulk]

Tim put a spool in the car! I saw you @ Framington & out of the water box it would spin one tire then the other....put a spool in it . I can give you Polhill's # his Escort is bad fast it has a spool...

[Bob Shaw]

Could the camshaft be advanced too much?

[tgriffith]

how dnagerous would it be to have a spool in the front????

on the cam being advanced??? I wouldnt think so even though I cant say for sure. I bought the long block from napa in 2001,,,,,,at the time, they installed the cam for me. The used a stock timing chain (or belt) and stock gears. They didnt advance it. Im not sure but Im thinking if they got it off a tooth, it wouldnt run rite at all....OR would it????? it sure does have the symptoms of being too far advanced

I tryed different computers thinking it might have been something there but same result on the downtrack ET not matching with the short time ET. The cam itself is one of those "out of the box" compu cams that crane used to sell with an advertised .423 lift.......and a mega 204 @ .050 in duration (LOL). There has never been any issues with idling,,starting, and appears stock except its loud,,,,,so this is the reason Im thinking its not off a tooth

I know with MSD, if you wire the crank trigger backward, it will be 10 degrees off or so but it will run fine,,,,,,,because some of the wiring had been hacked up when the digital MSD was installed,,,, I reverse the trigger wires........It fired and went "BANG",,,,,so we wont do that again

Ed,,you are correct about running it in bracket mode,,,My only issue with that is,,,,if I slow it down too much,,,,I will run out of dial in since its so slow down track.....and even though Bristol isnt the best hookin gplace in the world,,,,it was fairly good with the new guys at the helm AND the car wasnt making the HP it will at rockingham.......Rockingham is marginal at best, when the pro stuff is over,,,,,so if one gets lucky and makes it to 3 rd or so,,,its going to be problems...but at the rock, the car has ran 14.9`s so I would have some et I could kill

What about those lower A arms being bent out of shape????? I think I have come up with a way to add a traction bar using the lower motor mount (dog bone) and using the motor roll to shove the front end down when it launches,,,I had also seen somewhere (maybe on a neon) a type of ladder bar with 2 points connected to the A-arm and one point connected under the radiator,,,,,it didnt seem to actaully cause the car to hook but only served to keep the A-arm from twisting. A friend of mine today told me that he thought earlier cavaliers might have had a steel lower A arm...wasnt sure it would fit..


anyone know how much leaway Ihra/Nhra will tolerate with FWDers???

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by tgriffith

how dnagerous would it be to have a spool in the front????

on the cam being advanced??? I wouldnt think so even though I cant say for sure. I bought the long block from napa in 2001,,,,,,at the time, they installed the cam for me. The used a stock timing chain (or belt) and stock gears. They didnt advance it. Im not sure but Im thinking if they got it off a tooth, it wouldnt run rite at all....OR would it????? it sure does have the symptoms of being too far advanced

I tryed different computers thinking it might have been something there but same result on the downtrack ET not matching with the short time ET. The cam itself is one of those "out of the box" compu cams that crane used to sell with an advertised .423 lift.......and a mega 204 @ .050 in duration (LOL). There has never been any issues with idling,,starting, and appears stock except its loud,,,,,so this is the reason Im thinking its not off a tooth

I know with MSD, if you wire the crank trigger backward, it will be 10 degrees off or so but it will run fine,,,,,,,because some of the wiring had been hacked up when the digital MSD was installed,,,, I reverse the trigger wires........It fired and went "BANG",,,,,so we wont do that again

Ed,,you are correct about running it in bracket mode,,,My only issue with that is,,,,if I slow it down too much,,,,I will run out of dial in since its so slow down track.....and even though Bristol isnt the best hookin gplace in the world,,,,it was fairly good with the new guys at the helm AND the car wasnt making the HP it will at rockingham.......Rockingham is marginal at best, when the pro stuff is over,,,,,so if one gets lucky and makes it to 3 rd or so,,,its going to be problems...but at the rock, the car has ran 14.9`s so I would have some et I could kill

What about those lower A arms being bent out of shape????? I think I have come up with a way to add a traction bar using the lower motor mount (dog bone) and using the motor roll to shove the front end down when it launches,,,I had also seen somewhere (maybe on a neon) a type of ladder bar with 2 points connected to the A-arm and one point connected under the radiator,,,,,it didnt seem to actaully cause the car to hook but only served to keep the A-arm from twisting. A friend of mine today told me that he thought earlier cavaliers might have had a steel lower A arm...wasnt sure it would fit..


anyone know how much leaway Ihra/Nhra will tolerate with FWDers???

Trust me ,you don't want a spool in a FWD car. Very hard to steer ,except straight ahead. It''ll break your arm if you're not holding onto the wheel tight and you turn sharp .Especially on gravel of grass.

That mild cam explains alot. That's why it wants to run with less gear (tall tires) on it . You're making it hard to hook too, with that torque down low.
Tire pressure : We always ran the 173 Cimarrons with very low t/p. 8-9 lbs. Only way they'd hook .Everybody thought I was getting a flat all the time, with all that frontal weight.
I'd get rid of the alum a-arms . They're not helping you any .
Pretty sure those Caddys had steel lowers. They were 87-88 pilot cars. Maybe Jim Wahl will comfirm that.
Not done. Tired of typing tonight .You got a long way to go ,bud.

[Jeff Lee]

I see no mention of stiff front shocks....I had Koni "sport" struts on my A/FS Daytona set at full stiff for racing and softer on the street. That and the aluminum flywheel stopped the CV joint problems I had.

[Rob Lloyd]

Originally Posted by tgriffith

I think I have come up with a way to add a traction bar using the lower motor mount (dog bone) and using the motor roll to shove the front end down when it launches,,,

...

anyone know how much leaway Ihra/Nhra will tolerate with FWDers???

I've seen a similar setup on a (non-class car) turbo dodge. He said it was good for nearly 0.1 off his short times. Not sure how NHRA would view such a contraption. I mean, it's essentially the same as traction bars - which you can run on a RWD stocker...

[Toddwell]

Originally Posted by Rob Lloyd

I've seen a similar setup on a (non-class car) turbo dodge. He said it was good for nearly 0.1 off his short times. Not sure how NHRA would view such a contraption. I mean, it's essentially the same as traction bars - which you can run on a RWD stocker...

Rob, were you thinking of that swaybar/ dogbone setup?

Here's a couple pics...

Todd (vntodd)

[Owen S Quirion]

Tim, You have a PM