Next Debate.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Oh great!
Stick me with the 142 mph CJ's huh?

No not really. The new CJ's would be in AA blown fast class and yours could be in ZZ turbo slow class !

[Jeff Lee]

The only cure in my opinion is to follow OEM technical guidelines for boost pressure and NHRA follows it with mandatory pop-off valves calibrated and sealed by NHRA tech. If the OEM can't or won't provide the boost pressures, then they don't race. Turbo or SC engines should not be placed in a separate class as these are in fact what Detroit produces for todays market. But I also know that there is a range of acceptable boost pressures designed into these engines so they can be built to survive through warranty.
I know when I raced my '87 Shelby Z Daytona in A/FS there was an OEM boost standard for standard turbo-charged 2.2L Daytona's and another boost standard for the hi-po Shelby engine.
SCCA went to the SCCA provided calibrated & sealed pop-off valves back the early 90's when the Chrysler Turbo FWD cars began dominating the circuit. Once the boost levels were kept in bay, the dominance ceased.

[Mark Yacavone]

NHRA tech used to measure the pulley sizes on the 57 Fords and the Studebakers.
Why can't they do that now? Does the size keep changing every week, everytime they get a new Shelby letter?

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

No not really. The new CJ's would be in AA blown fast class and yours could be in ZZ turbo slow class !

Yeah. Can't wait to race them , having a 50 MPH deficit.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

The only cure in my opinion is to follow OEM technical guidelines for boost pressure and NHRA follows it with mandatory pop-off valves calibrated and sealed by NHRA tech. If the OEM can't or won't provide the boost pressures, then they don't race. Turbo or SC engines should not be placed in a separate class as these are in fact what Detroit produces for todays market. But I also know that there is a range of acceptable boost pressures designed into these engines so they can be built to survive through warranty.
I know when I raced my '87 Shelby Z Daytona in A/FS there was an OEM boost standard for standard turbo-charged 2.2L Daytona's and another boost standard for the hi-po Shelby engine.
SCCA went to the SCCA provided calibrated & sealed pop-off valves back the early 90's when the Chrysler Turbo FWD cars began dominating the circuit. Once the boost levels were kept in bay, the dominance ceased.

I dont think any of this boost pressure inspection will ever happen. # 1 the tech crew has been short changed 10 % of thier nothing pay for what they do now. # 2 here in Div 1 I think they have been told to cut out 3 employees from the crew at each race (not sure about the other divisions), Tech will be almost non existant it seems. Its not even a little bit fair to run cars like these supercharge CJ's heads up with the older muscle cars (FI or Carburated) in the same class. They make thier own atmosphere (cylinder pressure) for the intake charge. They may be what detroit produces today but they will put ALL of the rest of you out of business if they continue to run in the same class. $50,000 + stockers and S/S'ers will become worthles expensive bracket cars when someone decides to run one in S/S also. 2 different technolgies involved here.

[goinbroke2]

Yup, this really got derailed.......

The question is not about cj's, the question is about ALL THE REST THAT IS COMING!!!
You think GM or mopar won't have more turbo or supercharged cars soon? You think 2hp per cube from the factory with a smooth idle is never going to happen? How about 100hp per litre (355hp 3.5L ford)??
You can't stick your head in the ground, they are coming. Get off the cj rant, there are lots of threads already.
It looks the way forward is small cubes and boost. What will happen in a few years if electric cars take off? Charge between rounds then run 10 flat? Will there be a hundred threads on the "electric cj" or will people work together to include factory offerings?

So, what do you do about the NEW cars coming, seperate turbo/super class? That's one logical response. Except it adds classes.
What else? Leave them in regular classes but check pully's or max boost? Good, but will everybody be satisfied tech is good enough.
Anything else we could do?

[Just Observing]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

I dont think any of this boost pressure inspection will ever happen. # 1 the tech crew has been short changed 10 % of thier nothing pay for what they do now. # 2 here in Div 1 I think they have been told to cut out 3 employees from the crew at each race (not sure about the other divisions), Tech will be almost non existant it seems. Its not even a little bit fair to run cars like these supercharge CJ's heads up with the older muscle cars (FI or Carburated) in the same class. They make thier own atmosphere (cylinder pressure) for the intake charge. They may be what detroit produces today but they will put ALL of the rest of you out of business if they continue to run in the same class. $50,000 + stockers and S/S'ers will become worthles expensive bracket cars when someone decides to run one in S/S also. 2 different technolgies involved here.

All very true! Boost vs NA is a no contest! Hopefully NHRA realizes that the CJ's are severly underated and changes hp rating to 500hp. Just like they did with Butner's boosted comp car a couple of years ago. I think they lowered his index .5 tenths or so after they underestimated it the first time.

A min. wt of 3920 lbs in AA/s(a) should slow those CJ's down enough.

[goinbroke2]

[QUOTE=
A min. wt of 3920 lbs in AA/s(a) should slow those CJ's down enough.[/QUOTE]

Yup, that'll learn 'em huh?

OK, what about the 300hp turbo 2012 cobalt? or the 400hp supercharged 2013 neon? Oh yeah, saddle them with 1000lb's, yup that's thinking.
Then the factories go "eh, screw em, lets go back to sponsoring funny car and nascar"

Good plan, lots of forethought!

How about some creative/helpfull/insightfull idea's for a common problem instead of harping time and again against fords! If this was truely about supercharged or turbo vehicles being a problem then every freaking thread on this site wouldn't degenerate back to "the cj's"
It's losing a lot of the credibility when certain people keep whining about one vehicle. Is it a cj issue or is it a super/turbo issue?
And for those with the narrow/short sight that think it's solely a cj issue, will you be here next year fixated on the next factory car? Challenger? Camaro? One at a time you'd rather whine then go for the problem/issue?

[big blue galaxie]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Yup, that'll learn 'em huh?

OK, what about the 300hp turbo 2012 cobalt? or the 400hp supercharged 2013 neon? Oh yeah, saddle them with 1000lb's, yup that's thinking.
Then the factories go "eh, screw em, lets go back to sponsoring funny car and nascar"

Good plan, lots of forethought!

How about some creative/helpfull/insightfull idea's for a common problem instead of harping time and again against fords! If this was truely about supercharged or turbo vehicles being a problem then every freaking thread on this site wouldn't degenerate back to "the cj's"
It's losing a lot of the credibility when certain people keep whining about one vehicle. Is it a cj issue or is it a super/turbo issue?
And for those with the narrow/short sight that think it's solely a cj issue, will you be here next year fixated on the next factory car? Challenger? Camaro? One at a time you'd rather whine then go for the problem/issue?

The issue is that turbo/super cars can keep applying boost and gain advantage over the N/A competition without checks and balances; the Cobra Jet just became the object of complaint because it is ridiculously quick from the getgo and with prep can go way faster. Even the smaller boosted cars are formidable, as Mark already knows, and the modern equipment has more efficient heads.

[Just Observing]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Yup, that'll learn 'em huh?

OK, what about the 300hp turbo 2012 cobalt? or the 400hp supercharged 2013 neon? Oh yeah, saddle them with 1000lb's, yup that's thinking.
Then the factories go "eh, screw em, lets go back to sponsoring funny car and nascar"

Good plan, lots of forethought!

How about some creative/helpfull/insightfull idea's for a common problem instead of harping time and again against fords! If this was truely about supercharged or turbo vehicles being a problem then every freaking thread on this site wouldn't degenerate back to "the cj's"
It's losing a lot of the credibility when certain people keep whining about one vehicle. Is it a cj issue or is it a super/turbo issue?
And for those with the narrow/short sight that think it's solely a cj issue, will you be here next year fixated on the next factory car? Challenger? Camaro? One at a time you'd rather whine then go for the problem/issue?

The neon and cobalt will be FWD vehicles. They will have a hard time fitting in to current Af/s class at those HP factor levels. If a car is horrible underfactored it should be raised immediately. Doesn't matter if it is a challenger/camaro, Turboed/Supercharged/NA or whatever.

At the current factor of 425 hp the CJ's weigh 3355 min in AA/s(a). So a factor of 500 hp would add less than 600 lbs to them. 570lbs to be exact. This is were they will have to be once someone starts to massage these CJ's for the current AA/s(a)combos to be competitive. IMO.

BTW when the Hurst hemi cudas and darts came out of the "factory" rated at 425 hp NHRA instantly adjusted the hp factor to 500. Seems like a precedence to me......