Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71

[ss wannabee]

Originally Posted by ss wannabee

I wonder when NHRA "pulled" the 4-spds out of the '57 Pass Cars...what most of the
owners did...and how much slower was the car with either a 3-spd stick...or the PG?

I vaguely remember the rules change mentioned in the "Strickly for Stocks" column
in Hot Rod Magazine....also recall a Delivery racer with "NHRA hates Sedan
Deliveries" lettered on his car....

[Rich Biebel]

How many times has NHRA made stupid decisions that cost racers a lot of money and time or worse. The answer is a lot ! Just abitrarily make rules or do away with entire categories. Everytime they did this they lost racers. This goes all the way back to the 1960's. Look where they are now....

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

How many times has NHRA made stupid decisions that cost racers a lot of money and time or worse. The answer is a lot ! Just abitrarily make rules or do away with entire categories. Everytime they did this they lost racers. This goes all the way back to the 1960's. Look where they are now....

Speaking of allowed / not allowed:
Thanks to the books I have, HAMB, and this thread!!!, I now have a growing database of stock class (and a few SS and FX) cars from 1950-1971, with the following numbers of et/mph pairs:
186 chev (the most of course)
106 ford (even a few non-427 cars)
80 mopar (about 1/3 hemis)
9 buick (yes, that many!)
30 olds
5 "amc" (includes Hudson, stude)
Tedious but fun and revealing.


8 of these are the famous "stock" aka parts counter 383/343 combo of 1962. First run I have is from 1963, last from 1970. Was this combo ever disallowed, is it still called "stock class" today?


6 of the Fords are the 390/335 Comets of 1966. I thought I knew these cars pretty well but the story in this link surprised me- a lot of Ford gurus on that site and nobody disagreed:


http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...47/View+Thread


It says the 66 comet 390/335gt was allowed to run the much better aluminum 428 police intake AND functional cold air hood, and at least today, a bigger 735/780 Holley to replace the stock 600 Holley. Of course, Ford had a huge race parts bin, they just didn't use these parts from the factory. So its kind of like the 383/343 story. Anybody know if this is true, WHEN it was first allowed (NHRA disqualified the ram air GTO's at 66 Pomona so why would they allow aluminum intake Comets?), and WHY it only applied to the 66 Comet, and not all the other FoMoCo 390gt engines of 1966-1968?

[Kenney Kelley]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

I had the same thing once. Set both ends of the N/S record with my '56, tore down for Red Anderson (I was just a kid, and scared to death of him.), the Ronca Bros set both ends
the same weekend in div 1. I got the points, nothing else. I set the ET record two more times. I never could run the MPH those guys ran.

Ed In 1968 I was at a Points meet at Warner Robbins Ga. back then you could set the ET or MPH record. The car we had was a 9Pass 57 Wagon 265 2 Barrel Q/S. We were real close to the MPH. We were parked next to a racer that told me next time I go to the line stage the car put it in reverse let the clutch out very slowly the car will move back a couple of feet then put the car in first and go. That 1 or 2 feet put us within 2 tenths of a MPH record. That might have been how some were able to run the MPH. I was only 18 at the time. They have changed the rules now the car has to move forward. This was about the time the How to build a winning junior stocker article was in the Super Stock and Drag illustrated that's how we were able to build the car. I spent a lot of time under the car scraping undercoating. That's when I found out chevy had 2 different frames for a 55/57. Kenney

[Terry Witzel]

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

Freddie has sent me several records sheets (thanks) and that is helping the effort. Trouble is, they are the cryptic "69 Chevy" style so you have to guess at model/engine. I am getting pretty good at it.


But here is one for any gurus:
June 1971
H/S Gary Moore-Carroll's Auto Service-Pierson Pontiac, Tulia, TX
114.06mph, Houma, LA May 71


So I am ASSUMING the car is a Pontiac but they don't even give the year. A 70 GTO 400/350 fits but that is a total guess.

Web search discovered nothing on the car.
Anybody recall?

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

For your inquiry, here is what I found:


302-290 Z28 315 rating
427-425hp L72 435 rating
427-420hp L88/ZL1 480 rating
302-290hp Boss 330 rating
340-275hp MoPar 310 rating
426-425hp Street Hemi 480 rating
455-370hp Olds W30 380 rating
350-255hp 1969 Chevrolet 265 rating
400-370 1969 Pontiac RAIV 380 rating


Your '62 Pontiac 421-405hp combination was listed with and without the lightweight components, which we do not have in the current Class Guide. In 1969, C/S was an 8.50 break; in 1970, C/S was an 8.00 break. The lightweight component car would have made C/S easily @ 8.57 factor.


Odd items:
1) I cannot find a listing for the '68 Dart SS Hemi car.
2) The ZL1 '69 Corvette is in the guide
3) The LS7 '70 Corvette is in the guide

Hi Dwight et al yes I am still working on my old 1960s NHRA compilation.


There is another pair I am having trouble with, maybe you have a way to look up the NHRA weights and (Factored) HP for these cars back circa 1964-65.


Two engines:
* MaxWedge 426/425 - I am assuming this was not factored so stayed at 425 even though it made a bit more than that.
* 427/425 HiRiser - I am using a factored HP of 465 just to make things fit but that is a guess. Today's NHRA factors the HiRiser between 420-460 hp depending on class. Reality was it was over 500 hp even back in 1964-65, so I wondered how NHRA factored it back then.


Car weights:
Mainly looking for what NHRA said back in 1964-65 about the LightWeight Galaxie (LWG). NHRA today has the 1963 LWG at 3320 lb, and the 1964 LWG at 3748 lb. The bodies are near identical, so that's over 400 lb of difference. I know some of the lightweighting parts changed but here is my logic in asking this stuff:


* The meager real 1964-66 data I have on the 64 HiRiser LWG shows speeds of 121 mph for the auto trans (a doggy Lincoln unit) an 123-126mph for the stick car. That's getting up there near Thunderbolt speeds, so I wondered if the car was really as heavy as 3750 or if the old spec was different.
* In Larry Davis' book, I know he is not a Ford buy but he says on pg99: "However, the LWG fell right into the extreme top of AA/S, where they not only were competitive, they dominated".
Well, I get a W/P of 3748/465=8.06, which is a long way from being at the top of the AA=7.00-8.69 class. So either the 64 LWG spec was quite a bit lighter than 3748, or the factored HP was quite a bit more than 465, or the quote is just wrong.


Wondered if the OLD NHRA weights and factored HP could shed any light on this. Thanks for your patience for those who read this far.

[Dwight Southerland]

Interesting points that you bring out. Here is what I have found in the 1970 Classification Guide


1963 LWG is the same as currently listed. 7.82 factor and 425hp. That makes the shipping weight 3324 for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. Probably the published weight to NHRA was 3325, but so goes rounding. I have seen the claimed shipping weight to be 3270 and 3300 in other publications over the years. An interesting fact about these cars is that the LW components were available on a wide variety of car models and body styles, from a 300 2dr sedan to a Galaxie 500 XL 2dr hdtp.


1964 lightweight component car. Only listed for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. The current factor of 8.93 and 420hp makes the shipping weight 3750 lbs. In the 1970 Class Guide, the factor is 8.33. If the power rating back then was 425, then the shipping weight is 3540 lbs. However, I have no documentation that tells be what the engine was rated back then. But, if you assume that the 3750 shipping weight is correct, then the power rating was 450 (3750 / 450 = 8.333...), which in probably the case, since the Thunderbolt has a power-to-weight factor of 7.13 in the old book, and that would have the shipping weight at 3208, very close to the 3206 calculated from today's Class Guide.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Interesting points that you bring out. Here is what I have found in the 1970 Classification Guide


1963 LWG is the same as currently listed. 7.82 factor and 425hp. That makes the shipping weight 3324 for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. Probably the published weight to NHRA was 3325, but so goes rounding. I have seen the claimed shipping weight to be 3270 and 3300 in other publications over the years. An interesting fact about these cars is that the LW components were available on a wide variety of car models and body styles, from a 300 2dr sedan to a Galaxie 500 XL 2dr hdtp.


1964 lightweight component car. Only listed for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. The current factor of 8.93 and 420hp makes the shipping weight 3750 lbs. In the 1970 Class Guide, the factor is 8.33. If the power rating back then was 425, then the shipping weight is 3540 lbs. However, I have no documentation that tells be what the engine was rated back then. But, if you assume that the 3750 shipping weight is correct, then the power rating was 450 (3750 / 450 = 8.333...), which in probably the case, since the Thunderbolt has a power-to-weight factor of 7.13 in the old book, and that would have the shipping weight at 3208, very close to the 3206 calculated from today's Class Guide.

Thanks again Dwight that confirms what was said over on fordfe.com. Two folks over there had a 64 LWG and confirmed the car was 3750 with no driver, and could make that weight almost full of gas too. The old factor they remembered was 450-460hp (450hp in the 1973 book).


The 460hp makes sense as an earlier factor, because using "only" 450hp would have put the Thunderbolt into AA/S, so NHRA probably rated the engine at 460hp deliberately just to put the Thunderbolt barely into S/S with the Hemi, so the big Galaxie stayed in AA/S.


450-460hp seems low for a prepped 427 HiRiser, but as I Gonkulate both engines, 425hp was equally low for a 426 MW Stage 3. Both of those are factored at about 80% of what they actually made as prepped, to turn the MPH they turned.


I am finding that to be pretty much true, whether its the Tri-5 283s, the LM1, the z28, the 427 HR, the MaxWedge, etc, a "winning" combo engine typically was only NHRA rated at 80%-85% of what the prepped engine actually Gonkulates to.


If the engine was overrated, of course the combo would not win. But even if it was rated "right on", it would still lose out - there were so many good combos way underrated (80%-85%) that they dominated most of the classes.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

For your inquiry, here is what I found:


302-290 Z28 315 rating
427-425hp L72 435 rating
427-420hp L88/ZL1 480 rating
302-290hp Boss 330 rating
340-275hp MoPar 310 rating
426-425hp Street Hemi 480 rating
455-370hp Olds W30 380 rating
350-255hp 1969 Chevrolet 265 rating
400-370 1969 Pontiac RAIV 380 rating


Your '62 Pontiac 421-405hp combination was listed with and without the lightweight components, which we do not have in the current Class Guide. In 1969, C/S was an 8.50 break; in 1970, C/S was an 8.00 break. The lightweight component car would have made C/S easily @ 8.57 factor.


Odd items:
1) I cannot find a listing for the '68 Dart SS Hemi car.
2) The ZL1 '69 Corvette is in the guide
3) The LS7 '70 Corvette is in the guide

Dwight,
I am still working away, up to 1967-70 now and struggling with all those 400 Pontiacs. Wondering if you have time to look up some factors circa those years.
I'm assuming from the above that all the 400ra4, Firebird and Tempest, were factored to 380hp. I am using that 380hp also for the 1968-1/2 Ra2 cars since that "fits" the cars that ran and the engines were so similar.

It seems from 1967-70, Pontiac had a zillion 400's. The stick and auto cars had different cams but the same rated HP. The Tempest and Firebird had the same engines (well at least when they were uncorked for NHRA with open headers & throttles) but the Firebirds were all rated lower.

IN GENERAL, did NHRA up-rate all the Firebirds to their equal Tempest-engine ratings? (It seems the current guides do this but I wonder if they did that right away back in 1967-70 ?)

eg 1967:
Was the "325hp" Firebird RA1 up-rated to the "360hp" Tempest RA1 rating? (which I assume was left as-is at 360)? Were both the stick and auto cam engines left with the same rating?

1968:
So, was the "335hp" Firebird RA1 up-rated to the "360hp" Tempest RA1 rating (which I assume was left as-is at 360)? Were both the stick and auto cam engines left with the same rating?

1968-70
Was the base "330hp" Firebird up-rated to the base "350hp" Tempest rating?

Oddly, today's NHRA rates the 1968 Firebird base "330hp" at 338hp auto, 325hp stick, even though the auto engine had the smaller "066" cam.

1969:
Was the "335hp" Firebird RA3 up-rated to the "366hp" Tempest RA3 rating?

1970:
Was the "345hp" Firebird RA3 up-rated to the "366hp" Tempest RA3 rating?

It seems like, unless the Firebirds were "uprated" to the Tempest ratings, why would anybody ever race a Tempest when the Firebirds has this built-in advantage?

Sorry to be such a bother, trying to make the history as accurate as I can as I try to "Gonkulate" all these cars.

[g moore]

i have a copy of the record page from nat dragster from 1968--1972 if you want a pic. let me know-gary