Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! - Page 4

RocketBlock · 12-01-2007, 11:04 PM

Right now it is just something I heard. Does that mean NHRA is aware of the problem? Absolutely. Does it mean NHRA agrees this is a problem and against the rules? Absolutely. Does it mean NHRA will come out with an edict and enforce the rule as written? Who knows! We've all seen them drop on the deck and flop like a fish more than once (spongebob squarepants theme song)!

So lets put this in perspective. For now it's just a rumor. Take it for what it is worth. Who can get on here and tell everybody that any of these conversion outside of family parts are anything but ileagal? The specifications I have posted are absolute and can be verified in any motor manual published in hard copy or online. If that's the case, why would NHRA allow use of these parts? The reason it has been allowed to fly under radar is Danny Gracia over rode Travis and others at Indy when they tried to throw out a west coast racer. Politics, not enforcment or enterpretation of the rules is what has allowed this to continue. Present your case why NHRA should allow this. While your at it, present the case for NHRA to allow all other BOP engine builders to do the same. Might as well allow crossbreeding FE and 385 series Fords while your at it. See page 55 for stock and page 67 for SS of the rulebook under engine for clarification.
If this wasn't such an advantage, why would racers risk suspension to do it? Need I remind you who just won the SS championship and what motor he runs? Does having an engine that is capable of qualifying number 1 make a championship all the easier with bye runs and heads up dominating performance? Would 1 tenth have made a difference? 2 tenths? Dare I say 3 tenths?
I'm looking forward to hearing your case. Especially Herb's.

bill dedman · 12-02-2007, 05:02 AM

Seems like the crux of the matter would lie in the interpretation of the word "crossbreeding."

When I went to school, "crossbreeding" was a term applied to types of races of PEOPLE... If you had a couple who were of two different races, say a Caucasion and an Oriental, and they had an offspring, its ethnicity would be the product of "crossbreeding."

Applied to automobile engines, I always thought of someone running Ford pistons in a Chevy (or, vice-versa) whenever I saw that language ("No corssbreeding of parts") in the rulebook.

To apply this rule to different engine families, within the product lines of ONE manufacturer would be yet another way of looking at "crossbreeding", but it seems like a stretch to me. It is of no consequence, of course, what ~I~ think...

If that is what NHRA meant, however, when they wrote that, they need to come out and say it.

An official clarification of "crossbreeding" as it applies in this instance, is going to have to come from NHRA Tech.

I hope it's soon.

Larry Hill · 12-02-2007, 01:47 PM

It is possible to use a stock 383 crank in a 400 block and have 451 cubic inches.

RocketBlock · 12-02-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill

It is possible to use a stock 383 crank in a 400 block and have 451 cubic inches.

Really? Tell me how.
Because a 383 crank and a 400 crank have the same 3.375" stroke. A 383 block is 4.250" bore and a 400 block is 4.340" bore. So a 383 crank in a 383 block makes 383.03 cubic inches. A 383 crank in a 400 block makes 399.42 cubic inches. You could even put a 400 crank in a 383 block and make cubic inches.
See the pattern here?
But you could also put a 440 3.750" stroke crank in a standard bore 400 block after turning the main bearing journals down .125" and then you would have 443.80 cubic inches.

John Lang · 12-02-2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketBlock

Really? Tell me how.
Because a 383 crank and a 400 crank have the same 3.375" stroke. A 383 block is 4.250" bore and a 400 block is 4.340" bore. So a 383 crank in a 383 block makes 383.03 cubic inches. A 383 crank in a 400 block makes 399.42 cubic inches. You could even put a 400 crank in a 383 block and make cubic inches.
See the pattern here?
But you could also put a 440 3.750" stroke crank in a standard bore 400 block after turning the main bearing journals down .125" and then you would have 443.80 cubic inches.

In 1958 Chrysler made a raised deck 383 with the 3.75 stroke, and a very small bore. Can't remember the bore size, it's an old age defect...... John Lang

james schaechter · 12-02-2007, 04:15 PM

Rocket-
This is all quite interesting, and if true sounds pretty bogus to boot. I only hope that as hard as you are politicing here that you actually nut up and protest someone if you really feel that way. I mean, you obviously have thought this through. Heck I don't think that NHRA will make you state your name if you bring cash. Protest em if you really have a stake in this.

Dodge64 · 12-02-2007, 04:27 PM

RB 383" "Golden Lion" , 4.030" bore and 3.75" stroke.
In production '58-61 if remember ok

Stewart Way · 12-02-2007, 04:56 PM

John
Could be 58 but I think it was 59 that Chrysler introduced the RB 383. 4.0312 X 3.750. Same year Dodge and Plymouth had the B 383 with the 4.25 X 3.375. The RB 383 shared the same crank dimensions as the eventual 413 426 and 440.
The RB 383 lasted thru 61. In 58 Dodge and Plymouth had a B motor 350 with a 4.0625 bore. Think the 350 only lasted 1 year.
Guess to get a 451 from a 400 block and 383 crank you could use the 383 RB crank (440 crank), turn the mains and bore the 400 +.035.
None of the above speaks to the RB vs B block question but it is interesting brain filler for Mopar guys.

Speedracer · 12-02-2007, 05:51 PM

From what I have heard,it doesn't do any good to protest anyone on anything.If somebody can come up with a letter that says its legal to run a 150 horsepower Nitrous kit,because somebody at the dealer installed it,then its hard to say that it is not legal.
I suppose the same logic could come with this?

By the way,

Sniper Nitrous System is now on sale for $359.88 for anyone that is interested.MUCH cheaper than porting heads!

Chris Hill · 12-02-2007, 08:16 PM

Rocket,

I went back and checked the 2000 NHRA rulebook, and a 400 block with 440 crank is legal is SS only, grey area though.

It's legal if the correct length approved rods are used. The rule book does not state compression height must be certian diminsion, same thing with the distance from deck to C/L of the crankshaft. Mains and rods diameters are not checked any more, so your point there is not valid. Same thing for pushrods, intake manifolds, and piston compression height, as you don't care with a SS.

And Jim has a good point, protest next time you see it, but I think you'll be donating to the Steve Wann racing fund instead.

But a 400 block for a 440 engine in stock is illegal as hell.

12-01-2007, 11:04 PM	#31
RocketBlock Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 57 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! Right now it is just something I heard. Does that mean NHRA is aware of the problem? Absolutely. Does it mean NHRA agrees this is a problem and against the rules? Absolutely. Does it mean NHRA will come out with an edict and enforce the rule as written? Who knows! We've all seen them drop on the deck and flop like a fish more than once (spongebob squarepants theme song)! So lets put this in perspective. For now it's just a rumor. Take it for what it is worth. Who can get on here and tell everybody that any of these conversion outside of family parts are anything but ileagal? The specifications I have posted are absolute and can be verified in any motor manual published in hard copy or online. If that's the case, why would NHRA allow use of these parts? The reason it has been allowed to fly under radar is Danny Gracia over rode Travis and others at Indy when they tried to throw out a west coast racer. Politics, not enforcment or enterpretation of the rules is what has allowed this to continue. Present your case why NHRA should allow this. While your at it, present the case for NHRA to allow all other BOP engine builders to do the same. Might as well allow crossbreeding FE and 385 series Fords while your at it. See page 55 for stock and page 67 for SS of the rulebook under engine for clarification. If this wasn't such an advantage, why would racers risk suspension to do it? Need I remind you who just won the SS championship and what motor he runs? Does having an engine that is capable of qualifying number 1 make a championship all the easier with bye runs and heads up dominating performance? Would 1 tenth have made a difference? 2 tenths? Dare I say 3 tenths? I'm looking forward to hearing your case. Especially Herb's.

12-02-2007, 05:02 AM	#32
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! Seems like the crux of the matter would lie in the interpretation of the word "crossbreeding." When I went to school, "crossbreeding" was a term applied to types of races of PEOPLE... If you had a couple who were of two different races, say a Caucasion and an Oriental, and they had an offspring, its ethnicity would be the product of "crossbreeding." Applied to automobile engines, I always thought of someone running Ford pistons in a Chevy (or, vice-versa) whenever I saw that language ("No corssbreeding of parts") in the rulebook. To apply this rule to different engine families, within the product lines of ONE manufacturer would be yet another way of looking at "crossbreeding", but it seems like a stretch to me. It is of no consequence, of course, what ~I~ think... If that is what NHRA meant, however, when they wrote that, they need to come out and say it. An official clarification of "crossbreeding" as it applies in this instance, is going to have to come from NHRA Tech. I hope it's soon. __________________ Bill

12-02-2007, 01:47 PM	#33
Larry Hill Live Reporter Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Hickory, Ky Posts: 10,648 Likes: 1,941 Liked 10,757 Times in 2,236 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! It is possible to use a stock 383 crank in a 400 block and have 451 cubic inches. __________________ IHM Used Parts https://ihmusedparts.com 888-821-1817

12-02-2007, 04:15 PM	#36
james schaechter VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cumming GA Posts: 1,992 Likes: 1,293 Liked 1,436 Times in 299 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! Rocket- This is all quite interesting, and if true sounds pretty bogus to boot. I only hope that as hard as you are politicing here that you actually nut up and protest someone if you really feel that way. I mean, you obviously have thought this through. Heck I don't think that NHRA will make you state your name if you bring cash. Protest em if you really have a stake in this. __________________ James Schaechter 3163 STK

12-02-2007, 04:27 PM	#37
Dodge64 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: southern part of Sweden (Scandinavia) Posts: 20 Likes: 1 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! RB 383" "Golden Lion" , 4.030" bore and 3.75" stroke. In production '58-61 if remember ok

12-02-2007, 04:56 PM	#38
Stewart Way Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 476 Likes: 20 Liked 70 Times in 22 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! John Could be 58 but I think it was 59 that Chrysler introduced the RB 383. 4.0312 X 3.750. Same year Dodge and Plymouth had the B 383 with the 4.25 X 3.375. The RB 383 shared the same crank dimensions as the eventual 413 426 and 440. The RB 383 lasted thru 61. In 58 Dodge and Plymouth had a B motor 350 with a 4.0625 bore. Think the 350 only lasted 1 year. Guess to get a 451 from a 400 block and 383 crank you could use the 383 RB crank (440 crank), turn the mains and bore the 400 +.035. None of the above speaks to the RB vs B block question but it is interesting brain filler for Mopar guys.

12-02-2007, 05:51 PM	#39
Speedracer Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 59 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! From what I have heard,it doesn't do any good to protest anyone on anything.If somebody can come up with a letter that says its legal to run a 150 horsepower Nitrous kit,because somebody at the dealer installed it,then its hard to say that it is not legal. I suppose the same logic could come with this? By the way, Sniper Nitrous System is now on sale for $359.88 for anyone that is interested.MUCH cheaper than porting heads! Last edited by Speedracer; 12-02-2007 at 05:59 PM.

12-02-2007, 08:16 PM	#40
Chris Hill Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 655 Likes: 8 Liked 244 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock! Rocket, I went back and checked the 2000 NHRA rulebook, and a 400 block with 440 crank is legal is SS only, grey area though. It's legal if the correct length approved rods are used. The rule book does not state compression height must be certian diminsion, same thing with the distance from deck to C/L of the crankshaft. Mains and rods diameters are not checked any more, so your point there is not valid. Same thing for pushrods, intake manifolds, and piston compression height, as you don't care with a SS. And Jim has a good point, protest next time you see it, but I think you'll be donating to the Steve Wann racing fund instead. But a 400 block for a 440 engine in stock is illegal as hell. __________________ Chris Hill https://ihmusedparts.com