little help with FWD

tgriffith · 04-13-2009, 08:43 PM

Ive got a 89 cavalier that I just cant get to hook up consistently,,,,,60`s are only around 1.90.....as long as the track is great, so is the car.....soon as the track gets marginal, the car will spin.......any help would be appreciated

its a 173CI chevy,,,,24 tall slick,,9 wide,,,the rear is solid so there is little to no weight transfer

need some help if anyone has any ideas

thanks

tim

Fred Popov · 04-14-2009, 07:30 AM

Have you tried a ballast weight in the front? I would mount it as far forward as possible like in the front bumper. Also removing weight from the back should help.

Steve Stockton · 04-14-2009, 07:51 AM

Tim,

The more I think about it, the more I think it has to be something with the trans or converter. That is the only big thing that is different from when you had it before. I didn't have that many runs with it the way I got it from David with the stock gears in it to really know if it was more consistent or not. I just knew that it wasn't going to be quick enough.

The gears in it now are the same as what you had in before if I remember, but it has that Engineered Performance limited slip in it.

The same time that was put in the converter was done by some local guys here and they were all excited to try some new things with it. They were going to build me another one to play with, but nothing really happened with that. I know they did take the lock up part out of it, which they said took a LOT of weight out of it, and it ended up not stalling quite as high as it did before.

If you know what the converter was like in it before, I'd probably get another one of them and try it.

art leong · 04-14-2009, 03:32 PM

What tire pressure? Sounds like you have a lot of final drive ratio. I run a 20 inch tall tire and have 3.73 final drive. Plus the car is only 2600 pounds. Have you tried taking out some low rpm timing?
1.90 doesn't sound that bad. The best I had with my stockers was mid 1.80's running mid to high 13's
With my superstocker My best so far is 1.85 and the norm is 1.90 and that is going 13.1's

Mark Yacavone · 04-14-2009, 05:49 PM

Tim, that sounds like an awful lot of tire, height and width. Those tires will slow you down, all the way down the track. Not so much in the 1/8th though. Does it have a 3.73 final drive?

tgriffith · 04-14-2009, 08:32 PM

I have it VERY nose heavy and there is only about 1 inch travel in the back,,,,,,,,,,Im puzzled by a few thing on this car

1st-----it doesnt like the 20 tall tires,,,,,I have excessive spin and only about 67mph at the 1/8,,,,,the car seems to be quicker with the 24`s after the 60ft mark,,,,,,now Im sure that some is becasue of tire spin but with the 24`s,,,the MPH @ the 1/8 is nearly 70,,,,,,this also is at 2900lbs,,,,,,,,,the 1/4 MPH is @ 87 VS about 83 with the 20`s

now I know this isnt anything to write home about BUT this was at Bristol dragway,,,it ran 15.57,,,,,again, nothing to write home about but considering this is at bristol--.35 under is darn good for an actual stock motor with a cam

2nd---the 60 is way quick for the ET,,,,,,I could understand this IF this car was lite,,but it isnt,,,,,,,the digital MSD took a dump and with the stock computer, it isnt possible to retard the timing............I did try to find top dead center and mark it,,,,,threw a timing lite on it and it reads 40+ degrees at idle,,,,,,it goes to 50 at reving it up BUT I do want to POINT OUT,,,,this is very unreliable ( at best)---but it would explain all the short time ET and it not matching down track numbers

the gearing in the car ( I think) is only about an actual 3.40 or so with the 24`s,,,,,this is the actual tire size that came on the car--(215/60/14),,,,,,with the 20 tall tires,,gearing should be about 4.10,,,,,(.83% of actual size)---

After I had sold the car in 2002,,I had learned something I had did very wrong ,,,,,never thinking to try this again with a FWDer,,,put the info on the shelf and forgot about it,,,,

6 years later,,,I own the car again,,,,,so dug out notes and changed some things,,(about .30 worth),

last year at a test session,,,I was about the 5th or so pair out on a fresh sprayed track,,,,with the 20 inch tall tires,,,,,it slightly shuttered but had a 1.77 short time,,,,,,and needless to say,,,that was all of of that. Next pass, wouldnt pull out, and so on with the next 2 or so passes..,,,thats why I tryed the 24 tall tires,,,also with the 20`s on the only pass, it MPHed only 67......this was all at MM dragway in radford,,,,good track with no traction issues

with the 24`s ,,,,I had tryed 16lbs of air,,,,,.hooked fair,,,went to 18,,it was better,,,,went to 20lbs and seemed to hook better...all the numbers reflected it........the rims are stock and the 24`s, at the time, didnt seem to want to seat very well so I didnt go below the 16 mark with out drilling the rims for screws

examined the a-arms,,struts,,,the lower a-arms are alum,,,and are bent all to hell,,,,looked nearly warped

any help is needed,,,,tire pressure just may be way to high,,,,,,havent got any REAL info.....I had contacted the tire company and they said 22 to 24lbs,,,,,,,Im not going to swear to this but I think it says " do not inflate over 25psi"......whatever it was,,I got frustrated the tire company didnt have a clue

BUT,. over the years, in many racecars Ive learned that there is no "one size fits all" tire pressure number,,,,,I knew better even to waste time on the call, but was reaching....sometimes the biggest problem`s solution is the simpliest fix,,,,,,,

can I get away with about 10 or 12lbs of air on these 24`s ????..Is this my problem???.....the car performed absolutely awesome sat night UNTIL the track got marginal,,,,and that was all she wrote......

I appreciate all the help !!!!

greg fulk · 04-15-2009, 09:16 PM

Tim put a spool in the car! I saw you @ Framington & out of the water box it would spin one tire then the other....put a spool in it . I can give you Polhill's # his Escort is bad fast it has a spool...

Bob Shaw · 04-16-2009, 08:24 AM

Could the camshaft be advanced too much?

tgriffith · 04-16-2009, 07:32 PM

how dnagerous would it be to have a spool in the front????

on the cam being advanced??? I wouldnt think so even though I cant say for sure. I bought the long block from napa in 2001,,,,,,at the time, they installed the cam for me. The used a stock timing chain (or belt) and stock gears. They didnt advance it. Im not sure but Im thinking if they got it off a tooth, it wouldnt run rite at all....OR would it????? it sure does have the symptoms of being too far advanced

I tryed different computers thinking it might have been something there but same result on the downtrack ET not matching with the short time ET. The cam itself is one of those "out of the box" compu cams that crane used to sell with an advertised .423 lift.......and a mega 204 @ .050 in duration (LOL). There has never been any issues with idling,,starting, and appears stock except its loud,,,,,so this is the reason Im thinking its not off a tooth

I know with MSD, if you wire the crank trigger backward, it will be 10 degrees off or so but it will run fine,,,,,,,because some of the wiring had been hacked up when the digital MSD was installed,,,, I reverse the trigger wires........It fired and went "BANG",,,,,so we wont do that again

Ed,,you are correct about running it in bracket mode,,,My only issue with that is,,,,if I slow it down too much,,,,I will run out of dial in since its so slow down track.....and even though Bristol isnt the best hookin gplace in the world,,,,it was fairly good with the new guys at the helm AND the car wasnt making the HP it will at rockingham.......Rockingham is marginal at best, when the pro stuff is over,,,,,so if one gets lucky and makes it to 3 rd or so,,,its going to be problems...but at the rock, the car has ran 14.9`s so I would have some et I could kill

What about those lower A arms being bent out of shape????? I think I have come up with a way to add a traction bar using the lower motor mount (dog bone) and using the motor roll to shove the front end down when it launches,,,I had also seen somewhere (maybe on a neon) a type of ladder bar with 2 points connected to the A-arm and one point connected under the radiator,,,,,it didnt seem to actaully cause the car to hook but only served to keep the A-arm from twisting. A friend of mine today told me that he thought earlier cavaliers might have had a steel lower A arm...wasnt sure it would fit..

anyone know how much leaway Ihra/Nhra will tolerate with FWDers???

Mark Yacavone · 04-16-2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgriffith

how dnagerous would it be to have a spool in the front????

on the cam being advanced??? I wouldnt think so even though I cant say for sure. I bought the long block from napa in 2001,,,,,,at the time, they installed the cam for me. The used a stock timing chain (or belt) and stock gears. They didnt advance it. Im not sure but Im thinking if they got it off a tooth, it wouldnt run rite at all....OR would it????? it sure does have the symptoms of being too far advanced

I tryed different computers thinking it might have been something there but same result on the downtrack ET not matching with the short time ET. The cam itself is one of those "out of the box" compu cams that crane used to sell with an advertised .423 lift.......and a mega 204 @ .050 in duration (LOL). There has never been any issues with idling,,starting, and appears stock except its loud,,,,,so this is the reason Im thinking its not off a tooth

I know with MSD, if you wire the crank trigger backward, it will be 10 degrees off or so but it will run fine,,,,,,,because some of the wiring had been hacked up when the digital MSD was installed,,,, I reverse the trigger wires........It fired and went "BANG",,,,,so we wont do that again

Ed,,you are correct about running it in bracket mode,,,My only issue with that is,,,,if I slow it down too much,,,,I will run out of dial in since its so slow down track.....and even though Bristol isnt the best hookin gplace in the world,,,,it was fairly good with the new guys at the helm AND the car wasnt making the HP it will at rockingham.......Rockingham is marginal at best, when the pro stuff is over,,,,,so if one gets lucky and makes it to 3 rd or so,,,its going to be problems...but at the rock, the car has ran 14.9`s so I would have some et I could kill

What about those lower A arms being bent out of shape????? I think I have come up with a way to add a traction bar using the lower motor mount (dog bone) and using the motor roll to shove the front end down when it launches,,,I had also seen somewhere (maybe on a neon) a type of ladder bar with 2 points connected to the A-arm and one point connected under the radiator,,,,,it didnt seem to actaully cause the car to hook but only served to keep the A-arm from twisting. A friend of mine today told me that he thought earlier cavaliers might have had a steel lower A arm...wasnt sure it would fit..

anyone know how much leaway Ihra/Nhra will tolerate with FWDers???

Trust me ,you don't want a spool in a FWD car. Very hard to steer ,except straight ahead. It''ll break your arm if you're not holding onto the wheel tight and you turn sharp .Especially on gravel of grass.

That mild cam explains alot. That's why it wants to run with less gear (tall tires) on it . You're making it hard to hook too, with that torque down low.
Tire pressure : We always ran the 173 Cimarrons with very low t/p. 8-9 lbs. Only way they'd hook .Everybody thought I was getting a flat all the time, with all that frontal weight.
I'd get rid of the alum a-arms . They're not helping you any .
Pretty sure those Caddys had steel lowers. They were 87-88 pilot cars. Maybe Jim Wahl will comfirm that.
Not done. Tired of typing tonight .You got a long way to go ,bud.

04-13-2009, 08:43 PM	#1
tgriffith Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 187 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	little help with FWD Ive got a 89 cavalier that I just cant get to hook up consistently,,,,,60`s are only around 1.90.....as long as the track is great, so is the car.....soon as the track gets marginal, the car will spin.......any help would be appreciated its a 173CI chevy,,,,24 tall slick,,9 wide,,,the rear is solid so there is little to no weight transfer need some help if anyone has any ideas thanks tim

04-14-2009, 07:30 AM	#2
Fred Popov Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Chesapeake, VA Posts: 64 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: little help with FWD Have you tried a ballast weight in the front? I would mount it as far forward as possible like in the front bumper. Also removing weight from the back should help.

04-14-2009, 07:51 AM	#3
Steve Stockton Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: menomonie, wi Posts: 6 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: little help with FWD Tim, The more I think about it, the more I think it has to be something with the trans or converter. That is the only big thing that is different from when you had it before. I didn't have that many runs with it the way I got it from David with the stock gears in it to really know if it was more consistent or not. I just knew that it wasn't going to be quick enough. The gears in it now are the same as what you had in before if I remember, but it has that Engineered Performance limited slip in it. The same time that was put in the converter was done by some local guys here and they were all excited to try some new things with it. They were going to build me another one to play with, but nothing really happened with that. I know they did take the lock up part out of it, which they said took a LOT of weight out of it, and it ended up not stalling quite as high as it did before. If you know what the converter was like in it before, I'd probably get another one of them and try it.

04-14-2009, 03:32 PM	#4
art leong VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia Posts: 2,003 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: little help with FWD What tire pressure? Sounds like you have a lot of final drive ratio. I run a 20 inch tall tire and have 3.73 final drive. Plus the car is only 2600 pounds. Have you tried taking out some low rpm timing? 1.90 doesn't sound that bad. The best I had with my stockers was mid 1.80's running mid to high 13's With my superstocker My best so far is 1.85 and the norm is 1.90 and that is going 13.1's __________________ Art Leong 2095 SS

04-14-2009, 05:49 PM	#5
Mark Yacavone Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Miles From Nowhere Posts: 7,791 Likes: 2,883 Liked 5,080 Times in 1,936 Posts	Re: little help with FWD Tim, that sounds like an awful lot of tire, height and width. Those tires will slow you down, all the way down the track. Not so much in the 1/8th though. Does it have a 3.73 final drive? __________________ "We are lucky we don't get as much Government as we pay for." Will Rogers

04-14-2009, 08:32 PM	#6
tgriffith Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 187 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: little help with FWD I have it VERY nose heavy and there is only about 1 inch travel in the back,,,,,,,,,,Im puzzled by a few thing on this car 1st-----it doesnt like the 20 tall tires,,,,,I have excessive spin and only about 67mph at the 1/8,,,,,the car seems to be quicker with the 24`s after the 60ft mark,,,,,,now Im sure that some is becasue of tire spin but with the 24`s,,,the MPH @ the 1/8 is nearly 70,,,,,,this also is at 2900lbs,,,,,,,,,the 1/4 MPH is @ 87 VS about 83 with the 20`s now I know this isnt anything to write home about BUT this was at Bristol dragway,,,it ran 15.57,,,,,again, nothing to write home about but considering this is at bristol--.35 under is darn good for an actual stock motor with a cam 2nd---the 60 is way quick for the ET,,,,,,I could understand this IF this car was lite,,but it isnt,,,,,,,the digital MSD took a dump and with the stock computer, it isnt possible to retard the timing............I did try to find top dead center and mark it,,,,,threw a timing lite on it and it reads 40+ degrees at idle,,,,,,it goes to 50 at reving it up BUT I do want to POINT OUT,,,,this is very unreliable ( at best)---but it would explain all the short time ET and it not matching down track numbers the gearing in the car ( I think) is only about an actual 3.40 or so with the 24`s,,,,,this is the actual tire size that came on the car--(215/60/14),,,,,,with the 20 tall tires,,gearing should be about 4.10,,,,,(.83% of actual size)--- After I had sold the car in 2002,,I had learned something I had did very wrong ,,,,,never thinking to try this again with a FWDer,,,put the info on the shelf and forgot about it,,,, 6 years later,,,I own the car again,,,,,so dug out notes and changed some things,,(about .30 worth), last year at a test session,,,I was about the 5th or so pair out on a fresh sprayed track,,,,with the 20 inch tall tires,,,,,it slightly shuttered but had a 1.77 short time,,,,,,and needless to say,,,that was all of of that. Next pass, wouldnt pull out, and so on with the next 2 or so passes..,,,thats why I tryed the 24 tall tires,,,also with the 20`s on the only pass, it MPHed only 67......this was all at MM dragway in radford,,,,good track with no traction issues with the 24`s ,,,,I had tryed 16lbs of air,,,,,.hooked fair,,,went to 18,,it was better,,,,went to 20lbs and seemed to hook better...all the numbers reflected it........the rims are stock and the 24`s, at the time, didnt seem to want to seat very well so I didnt go below the 16 mark with out drilling the rims for screws examined the a-arms,,struts,,,the lower a-arms are alum,,,and are bent all to hell,,,,looked nearly warped any help is needed,,,,tire pressure just may be way to high,,,,,,havent got any REAL info.....I had contacted the tire company and they said 22 to 24lbs,,,,,,,Im not going to swear to this but I think it says " do not inflate over 25psi"......whatever it was,,I got frustrated the tire company didnt have a clue BUT,. over the years, in many racecars Ive learned that there is no "one size fits all" tire pressure number,,,,,I knew better even to waste time on the call, but was reaching....sometimes the biggest problem`s solution is the simpliest fix,,,,,,, can I get away with about 10 or 12lbs of air on these 24`s ????..Is this my problem???.....the car performed absolutely awesome sat night UNTIL the track got marginal,,,,and that was all she wrote...... I appreciate all the help !!!!

04-15-2009, 09:16 PM	#7
greg fulk VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: jackson Posts: 1,165 Likes: 0 Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Re: little help with FWD Tim put a spool in the car! I saw you @ Framington & out of the water box it would spin one tire then the other....put a spool in it . I can give you Polhill's # his Escort is bad fast it has a spool... __________________ Greg Fulk 308 308X P/SA "ALL AMERICAN"

04-16-2009, 08:24 AM	#8
Bob Shaw Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sedalia, Mo Posts: 435 Likes: 318 Liked 295 Times in 60 Posts	Re: little help with FWD Could the camshaft be advanced too much? __________________ Bob Shaw V/SA 515

04-16-2009, 07:32 PM	#9
tgriffith Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 187 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: little help with FWD how dnagerous would it be to have a spool in the front???? on the cam being advanced??? I wouldnt think so even though I cant say for sure. I bought the long block from napa in 2001,,,,,,at the time, they installed the cam for me. The used a stock timing chain (or belt) and stock gears. They didnt advance it. Im not sure but Im thinking if they got it off a tooth, it wouldnt run rite at all....OR would it????? it sure does have the symptoms of being too far advanced I tryed different computers thinking it might have been something there but same result on the downtrack ET not matching with the short time ET. The cam itself is one of those "out of the box" compu cams that crane used to sell with an advertised .423 lift.......and a mega 204 @ .050 in duration (LOL). There has never been any issues with idling,,starting, and appears stock except its loud,,,,,so this is the reason Im thinking its not off a tooth I know with MSD, if you wire the crank trigger backward, it will be 10 degrees off or so but it will run fine,,,,,,,because some of the wiring had been hacked up when the digital MSD was installed,,,, I reverse the trigger wires........It fired and went "BANG",,,,,so we wont do that again Ed,,you are correct about running it in bracket mode,,,My only issue with that is,,,,if I slow it down too much,,,,I will run out of dial in since its so slow down track.....and even though Bristol isnt the best hookin gplace in the world,,,,it was fairly good with the new guys at the helm AND the car wasnt making the HP it will at rockingham.......Rockingham is marginal at best, when the pro stuff is over,,,,,so if one gets lucky and makes it to 3 rd or so,,,its going to be problems...but at the rock, the car has ran 14.9`s so I would have some et I could kill What about those lower A arms being bent out of shape????? I think I have come up with a way to add a traction bar using the lower motor mount (dog bone) and using the motor roll to shove the front end down when it launches,,,I had also seen somewhere (maybe on a neon) a type of ladder bar with 2 points connected to the A-arm and one point connected under the radiator,,,,,it didnt seem to actaully cause the car to hook but only served to keep the A-arm from twisting. A friend of mine today told me that he thought earlier cavaliers might have had a steel lower A arm...wasnt sure it would fit.. anyone know how much leaway Ihra/Nhra will tolerate with FWDers???