To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

If not the AHFS then what?
What I'm hoping for is that a few Old Timers will get on here and explain to the geniuses who don't like (or agree) with the way HP hits are handled now how it was done in the "Good-old-days" before Nitro Joe's and the internet. When you went through Tech and were told that your combo got 5-10-15 HP this week (back then, Tech liked nice, round numbers, no 2-3) and your combo runs this class and weighs this much now.

Would I like to see changes to the AHFS? Sure I would but I don't believe that the Tech Dept. has the time or manpower right now to "fix" it.
I think that it would be great to have some kind of an independent auditor handle it but I can't imagine who or what that would be and I don't believe that the NHRA would allow an outside contractor to handle it anyway.

Come on you Old Poops, remind us what it used to be like in the Good-old-days.

For the rest of you intellectuals, let's hear your excuses.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Who ever first stated Automatic Help For Slugs had it right!
It’s primary use has been to protect HP factors or getting some off.
“Unhook secondary’s” for a couple of races to take the average down or going slow for a year (the 6 month period was to easy) and ask for a reduction has now become a boring part of what I once thought was the coolest thing on earth :Stock and SS,
And the “mine shaft rule” comes in to play at Indy,even that isn’t used as intended:rolleyes:
Everyone involved know about the huge hp differences on same engine family’s this system has created but most racers seem to like the idea to have an option to change,model,trans or just trim to get ahead

Yes it have been somewhat effective on all paper cars I need to add :)

I remember the old system as OK anyhow,in the top dog classes in Stock it always seemed to be pretty close between the Big 3;the records keept alternating among all 3 makes. Now almost no one even want to try and get it anymore...and because of AHFS.

p.s. I always thought Ford racers had a good friend on the board but those racers probably had another opinion than me...

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Triggering the AHFS at the 1/8th would be a good start. Granted it won't fix everything ,but it would sure help.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

As I remember.. HP adjustments seem to be made by the "powers to be" as a popularity contest. "Squeaky wheel gets the grease", "I like him so he's not getting any", "Well you know you really deserved some" comes to mind. Too much emotion and opinions. We don't need to go back there. Just look at Stock Eliminator cylinder head rules!!

Todays system is not perfect, but we need to keep it as a numbers game. Checks, balances, and tweaks need to be made. I personally think the "mineshaft" rule needs to be based on actual weather data and not by the number of cars running .85 under. Super Stock did not go "mineshaft" this year at Indy. Looking at the Q list, I think there were plenty of cars that could have gone .85 under but did not need to. Egos always go to the top so some adjustments will be made.

1.20 under at -500 feet no problem, but at 3000 feet you need HP.

How about putting more monetary value on class wins. A trophy is ok, but a couple of grand may make a guy keep his foot down for the whole 1/4 mile!

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

1/8th mile MPH would be the most accurate way of rating a body style and combo but a lot of racers would be against that as they got used to and enjoy being able to work the system, and NHRA knows that.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

I can only go back to the early 80's from memory. You could have let's say 10 cars running the same combo. 9 of them could barely run the index. Then there was that one car that was fast. Boom the combo got 5 or 10hp.
Once I went to the Dutch classic. The barometer meter was pegged at 31 and it was about 50 degrees. I set the record and it never made the dragster. I got hp the next day. Basically tore down and changed class over the weekend. I have no problem with todays system. The one off combos are hard to deal with at times. They can be number 1 qualifier, get the bye run and bring the average back down. Works the system to perfection.
I guess I have one of those being the only A-Body mopar running a 440 4bbl with the original cast iron heads. Just scared the tech department won't see it that way.

Paul Haszlauer

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Billy I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with everything you said. Except for the INTELLECTUALS ( B Parker). Indy this year proved that if the AHFS is in effect all it will do is keep some away and anyone that is fast enough will just play the game. I agree the AHFS needs to be tweaked. It's 20 year old standards. I don't care how but either lower the indexes a tenth or change the three ET trigger points by a tenth. Have it twice a year like they had it. And if a combo triggers it to be looked at more than 3 times in those 6 months. You don't need to take a look at the averages it gets automatic 5HP upon the 3rd trigger. Let Indy be the one National that racers don't have to play the game. No AHFS. It will let racers see what combo's could use some extra weight or how far behind or ahead they are of others in their same combo. I know others will find fault in this but it is better than what we have now. BP

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Go back to class winners only at Indy,Gators,Winters(whatever other Nats you want to). Then fastest 32 qualified after that. No class singles. In Super Stock this year that would be 31 class winners plus the 3 combo class winners plus 32 top qualifiers. Put the "Class" back in racing. AFHS in force with no "Mineshaft" deal. I'd like to see people game that system.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

To bypass , this I'd just put 2nd gear Rev limiter at a lowered rpm and run against it till after 1/8 mile then shift into 3rd gear....

Oops, I missed the 2-3 shift again...

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

You going to do that every pass lol . If so I'd love to be in the other lane. There are plenty of ways around it that people are already doing now. Its not a fix ,but I think it would help.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

With all the performance gains we have made and been given I believe the indexes or the AHFS needs to be adjusted. How many people are making the same horsepower they did 10 or 5 years ago..

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

I guess I'm qualified to respond to this
I can remember when Gary Wood left New York in J/SA, and by the time they got to Pomona, they were in I/SA! Nobody wants that..I don't think.
But what DO most people want? GP just made a point about raising the trigger.
I would do it a different way..I'd lower the indexes about a tenth every three years, until they stop giving away goodies at NHRA..Trigger stays the same.
Only problem with that is our local S/SS Combo series needs all the cars it can get and I wouldn't wanted to anyone left out at the bottom.
Of course , local races can use whatever they want, including the old IHRA + .3 indexes.
If I had a common combination and was in the middle of the pack, I'd want the trigger raised so I had a chance to catch up.
If I had a one of a kind combo in a popular class, I'd probably want the 1.20 under trigger to remain, plus the AHFS at Indy.
I think we need to get everybody on the same page before we can address the problem. It ain't gonna happen, but we can sure beat it around for several pages, here ;-)

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

The people whose combos aren't "blessed" with replacement blocks,heads(iron AND aluminum), intakes and carbs. The people whose combos don't respond to roller rockers, solid lifters and replacement pistons and rings that don't even LOOK like the original ones but get approved anyway. The people whose combos are carb, intake or cylinder head restricted. These people are making the same or slightly more HP while still being stuck with, mostly, the same HP factor while all of the combos that DO benefit from all of the above "enhancements" complain that the indexes are too soft.
I can build your brother's combo without using a single part that Chevrolet ever installed on a STOCK (meaning original) 402/375 including the intake and the carb!

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

So you agree Billy. People are making more horsepower. I don't make the rules, Just live by them. My cast iron intake cast heads made more horsepower 5 years in a row. We may not all agree on the enhancements but them are the rules.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Every National Event should allow a minimum of 64 car field (no singles) and allow at least 70 entries. The quickest 64 cars qualify for the field. This will help fix the AHFS.

I remember when it was an honor to qualify for a National event. Lets bring back the performance aspect of stock and super stock to qualifying.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

How about 80 entries at every national event - however only 64 qualify - should cut down on entries filling up at grade 8.

AHFS at a 1000' - no matter where you do it - guys will figure a way to maintain an unfair advantage just to try to qualify high.

It is about egos.


Ron

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

1. AHFS starts at 1/8 mile.
2. At every national event where class is run, all class winners are in the qualified field, even single car class wins. Then fill out the field with top qualifiers.
3. One hp factor per engine. No more car-hp factors. A 350 in an big car carries the same factor as a small sporty car. If the engine is used in various makes and bodies, the factor applies to all. "Engine Families"
4. An independent board? Maybe. Only if it were made up of elected officials,

Run it like this for three years, then come back with complaints. In the meantime, it would be a new set of acts for entertainment.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Yes, people are making more HP. But not as much proportionately as the people with a bucket load of "approved replacement parts". Now, let's get to my point and talk about your AFTERMARKET cast iron heads that are carrying 4 and 5 CCs more runner than the OEM head. More HP for 5 years in a row! So the shop doing your STUFF has been manipulating your heads a bit more every year.
Somewhere I saw somebody post "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". Who got "greased" to approve aftermarket heads to replace a 624 casting? Especially in Stock! They're not the least bit rare. They are pretty crack prone and hard to manipulate though.
Now the people who have been "blessed" with these "approved/Improved" parts make bigger HP gains than the "have-nots" and want the indexes moved. These same "blessed" people are complaining because they are "approved" to make more HP and yet they complain when the "rules/AHFS" try and GIVE them more HP.
Sorry Gary, if you don't want the AHFS to GIVE you more HP then please come up with a better and quicker way to make the AHFS GIVE BACK HP (HP welfare) to the have-nots.
It's stuff like this that just goes to prove that the playing field is no longer "level" in Stock.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

GO BACK TO 1971 ENGINE RULES. TODAYS STOCKER ENGINE :cool: IS A JOKE !

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

IF you have an effective monitoring board, the AHFS would not be necessary.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

As I said before, you can't have people involved to make decisions. It has to be by numbers.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Yes, some are making more but not as much as some believe. There are a lot of bolt on parts that allows cars to be quicker..
Radial tires
Headers
Trans gear ratios
Convertor technology
FI tuning
Even suspension technology

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

I have a good example of how the old factoring system worked.
In 1991 at the Topeka national race early on Friday morning in the cool air with a tail wind
I ran .70 under my 18.50 index and qualified #1. This was with a 86 HP Mercury Lynx. I happened to survive eliminations until Sunday afternoon. Then it was about 95 degrees and a head wind. I dialed the index and could not run it. So NHRA gave me 5 HP which moved me up a class and gave me a 17.25 index. My car was instantly obsolete. Nobody at NHRA was interested in talking to me about what they did.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

100% agree. But why bother with class run offs if the AHFS is in effect...just go down and watch a round of Super Gas qualifying.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

It’s real simple if a combo has two runs over -1.00. No runs under -.75 sould towards bring the ave down. It’s to easy to lower your avg now that you have a whole season so save it. And let be fair if there are Manipulate runs over -1.00. Runs of -.45 to -.75 should not count.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Hi Charlie !
That's an interesting concept. I bet every engine builder in the nation just read your post and passed out. LOL
I been told by all the engine builders I've had, Keown, Gulius, Gale Pawley, that there is next to no money in freshen ups. All their funding comes from new motors and the relentless desire to be at the top of the sheet. If your proposition was implemented, knowing very well that in a season your brand new 50 thousand dollar piece would be no better than your last, why build one ?

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Because 80% of the class is running flat out trying to win class. That's why

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

As it should be. But what are the 20% doing...keeping it under the 1.20 even in the final to avoid the hit. Should not be using AHFS in any class run offs at any race.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

So in no race should you be penalized for running more that 1.20 over in class? How about heads ups? If that's what you are saying, when should it be in effect, when you are dialing in or just trying to get a better spot on the Ladder?

And if that is what you are trying to say, when does the guy with a combo that's not as competitive as the guy that goes 1.30 under in class ever have a shot?

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

I'm talking about races where class run offs are being done not eliminations. In class run offs if your combo isn't as competitive as the combo going 1.30 are whatever under you are screwed. Thats the way it's always been. Slower combos DON'T win class run offs if faster combos are competing. If you want to win class your car needs to be competitive with the fastest cars running that class. If you go out to Indy running .6-.8 tenths under you may make the show depending on who shows up but you ain't going to be bring a Wally home for a class win.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

I think if you ran your own survey and asked if there should be no afhs at any events where class would run you would get a different result than just Indy.
Maybe your A/S is one of the fastest in the country and thats why you feel this way, but most won't in my opinion. And I was in favor of not having AFHS at Indy!

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

What difference does it make if it's Indy or not. If there is a car at any of the class run off races that can run up against the 1.20 under and you can't it isn't going to do you any good having the AHFS in effect.

And why just Indy? There were alot of very fast cars that didn't attend Indy this year. That's a long haul for alot of racers from div 6&7. Why not let them run all out at Pamona, Seattle, or Vegas. There are national events in every division why not at least one no AHFS in effect class run off in each division. I would like seeing what the rocket ships will really do in their own back yards. Open divisional races have no AHFS but do not have class run offs.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

This very subject was created by a liberalized rule book, the interpretation of it and the use of aftermarket parts, as Billy effectively articulated.

I've said it many times before, if you spend the time and money to go faster than 1.0 - 1.2 under but are unwilling to even to win class, what the hell are you doing this for?

Stock Eliminator in my humble opinion has been bastardized.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Class run off at Dutch Classic

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Glenn,
Sadly the Pennsylvania Dutch Classic isn't what it once was.
Frank

P.S. Congratulations on your great performance at Indy!

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Yes you're correct about Dutch but, running class without Ahfs in effect is nice. We are also running Jr stock at Dutch on Friday. Heads up .5 pro tree no breakout. H weight stick or auto trans.

Re: To all you INTELLECTUALS (B Parker)
 

Good example Bob! To put this into a little bit better perspective, you were given 5 HP (the minimum that NHRA gave out in "the old days") in a 27.5 pound class! That's a lot of extra weight for a 86HP combo to have to haul around.