Slant six starting woes...
 

Spent the last TWO DAYS trying to get our new engine started, without ANY success.

We didn't install ANY of the turbo plumbing, and have a just the stock, freshy-rebuilt, 1-bbl carb on a stock /6 intake manifold, and are using a stock exhaust manifold, installed with all the stock hardware. A short exhaust system with a muffler completes the temporary installation.

The idea in doing all this was to have a trouble-free startup for our cam break-in.

Ha.... the best-laid plans, etc...


Here's the problem; maybe somebody can figure it out and tell me what is going on; I can't stand another day of cranking with no start...

It's a .065"-overbored 225 motor (234 cubic inches) with forged pistons, an un-milled head and un-milled block deck... 9:1, measured compression with flat top pistons that are .167" down in the hole.

Stock stroke (4-1/8") crank, with 1.75"/1.5" valves


None of that has anyhing to do with why it won't start, though...

BIG battery (cranks fast,) excellent, new, mini-starter and the multimeter shows 12.64 volts at the + side of the coil) wired direct from the battery.

New spark plug wires and new stock heat range (Champion) plugs.

New magnetic pickup distributor, remanufactured from NAPA (nobody had a new one.... all re-manufactured.)

Used, but stock coil off a previously-running car.

Turn the key to "start," and....

Nothing... crank, crank, crank (this, on a brand-new cam that was degreed several times to ensure that it was in correctly.)

Pulled the coil off, and replaced it with a NEW one from NAPA.

Nothing.... crank,crank, crank.... still, no spark.

Pulled the distributor and replaced it withn a "points-style" distributor with new points and condenser....


Nothing.... crank, crank, crank...

It SOUNDS here, like the cam is not turning, but it has a brand new timing sprocket set and a new chain, with the splash "washer" installed correctly.

Obviously, there is no "make-break" signal gettting to the coil. To reiterate, the + side of the coil is wired DIRECTLY to the BATTERY hot side, and is showing 12+ volts throughout all of this.

I am stumped.

I'm afraid all this cranking at starting RPM is going to damage the cam, in spite of lots of ZDDP in the oil, and worn-out 318 valve springs on the valves.

Of course, once it's obviously not going to "hit" (fire), we stop cranking, immediately, but still.... that can't be anything but BAD for that cam/lifter interface...

This is driving me nutz... and, Freddie.

Has anyone got ANY idea what could keep that signal from the distibutor that goes to the minus side of the coil, from reaching there? ALL wiring to the distributor and coil has been eliminated except for the HOT (12.4 volts from the battery) and the one wire that goes to the minus side of the coil from the points or magnetic pickup in the distributor.

ANY HELP WILL BE APPRECIATED...


We need to get this thing running... yesterday...

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

If there is no spark then you have obvious problem. Does the rotor turn while cranking?
if yes and you have used the rotor on both distributors check to make sure voltage gets from the center to the tip. I have had one that didn't send the signal once. weird but happened. Does the coil still have voltage when cranking?

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

Phillip knows far more about these engines than I do. If the rotor is turning I'd pull the distributor and turn it by hand so you are not rotating the engine while you are looking for the problem. My first step would be to replace the champions with anything else.
Pete

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

put a test light on the NEG SIDE OF THE COIL (ground the wire on the test light) and give it a crank, it should flash.
if not THEN i would see if the dist is turning...

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

As I recall, many of those distributors had a Nylon gear at the end of the distributor and prone to breaking.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

Yes, they are both nylon... I'll investigate that. Thanks!

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

Coil has voltage at the + side at all times, due to the wired direct-to-battery hot side.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

I will do that, but I don't think I'll see a signal.... but, I WILL do that.

Thanks!

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

This maybe to simple but do you have good ground to the engine? I assume if it is cranking you do. But I find in my line of work that poor grounds cause a lot of issues.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

What does it have for ignition? MSD and stock distributor I'll assume. With the distributor hooked up but out of the engine and the ignition on you can spin the shaft and it should throw a spark out of the coil. Spin it fast. If it's not throwing a spark you either have a problem with the box or the pick up in the distributor. You can check the distributor with an ohm meter, Disconnect the the 2 prong connector and spin the shaft slowly. You should see the resistance value changing as you rotate. If that looks good test the box, I use a paper clip to touch the 2 wires together that go back to the box. This should make the box fire the coil.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

do you have any ignition "box?" I assume you have some style of box because you removed a magnetic pickup distributor and installed a point type distributor.

A point style system DOES NOT use any control box, thus making it the most simple system. A point type system has battery power on coil positive and the distributor single wire point lead connected to the coil (-) terminal. No other wires are required to make a spark.

With battery power to the coil positive you can manually open the points and the coil will spark.

So, make sure the points are clean and opening about .015" when on the distributor cam lobe. Make sure you have a new condenser in the distributor. As mentioned in an above suggestion, you can remove the distributor and turn it by hand and the coil will fire each time the points open. [you need a ground wire from distributor to the engine when testing the distributor out of the engine. No ground required when it is mounted in the engine]

Use a spark plug wire in the coil secondary tower and plug in a test spark plug gapped at .040" Ground the test plug to the engine.

Please post your results.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

A few more Chrysler ignition system notes. Some Chrysler system of about the year model you have used a "dual ballast resistor" It is a four terminal resistor usually mounted on or near the firewall. Those resistors are known to burn out.

It's function it to provide coil positive power when the ignition switch is in the "on" or "start" position. Make sure you have battery power to the coil while the "key" is in the crank position.

I do understand that you are trying to "rig" something just to fire up the engine and that is fine. Once the initial fire up is behind you a final solution can be provided. The idea of using a simple point distributor should provide an acceptable start up system.

And one note about points, they are not designed to run at full battery voltage. The points will not tolerate that voltage for long periods. They are design to run with a resistor in-line before the coil positive to give about 10 volts at the coil when running. However, you are OK without a resistor for temporary start up usage.

Also, I understand your cam break-in concern but it sounds like you are OK. Sounds like you are only spinning it for short periods. And consider this, you have weak springs and the slant 6 engine has the large .904 Chrysler lifter. That systems was never been a problem with cam/lifter life.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

No MSD at this point in time.
We bought an MSD 6-AL-II (digital) for racing, but all components for this cam break-in are stock. We were using an orange box but took it out of the loop (as well as the ballast resistor) when we weren't getting any spark. Now, it's just a direct wire from the battery + side to the + side of the coil, the distributor make/break wire to the minus side of the coil, and a stock, points type distributor.

Simple, no??? LOL!

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

Thanks, Larry for the encouragement RE: the cam/lifter situation. I appreciate it!

This points-type distributor will come out as soon as we get the cam broken in. IF that ever happens...

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

We disabled (wired around) the orange box when we installed the old, points-ty[e distributor and ran a wire ddirectly from the + post on the battery to the + side of the brand-new coil; no detours along the way... the coil plus side is getting 1.4 volts.

The wore coming out of the distributor is wired directly to the minus side of the coil; what could possible go wrong???? LOL!!

A lot, apparently. :(

The points are clean and gapped at .015".

The distributor came out of an engine that was running well, when it was removed.

Next step is to install a new capacitor (er, condenser.)

Thanks much for your advice!!!!

I'll get back to you, but probably not today... It's 96 degrees outr there, and the car is outside.... and I am 72 years old, and my partner is 73... too old for this XXXX..... LOL!

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

That is a good point. Will install a new ground strap, the next time I work on it, for sure!

Thanks!

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

1.4 volts to the coil? That doesn't sound right.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

I suppose your 1.4 volts at the coil is a typo? The coil positive voltage should be what ever the battery voltage is 12.3 - 12.5 , something close to that.

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

That isn't right; it was a a typo that I didn't catch. It should have read 12.4 volts to the coil.

Sorry for the confusion... :)

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It still doesn't RUN, but it's getting healthy spark, now FINALLY!!!

What was wrong that it had NO spark???

Turns out, the points in that point-type distributor had an affliction that I can't explain, but here's what it was doing: When the points were CLOSED, there was NO electricity passing from the "hot" side of the contacts to the other side. NONE. How that is possible, I do not understand; I had filed the contact area of both sides of the points , wiped off all the filings (loose stuff that resulted from the abrasive) and gapped them to .015".

I set up a test light to check continuity, not expecting in a million years to find that there was NO electricity passing between them when the were closed.

Could NOT believe my eyes, but a new set of points worked as it should, and all of a sudden, the make/break function (now operating correctly) had my coil shooting a really healthy spark, just like it should have all along.

Dang....

Now, all that's left to do is properly time the distributor for correct spark advance, and I can put this sorry episode behind me.

Thanks much to the many people who took the time to educate me on the many facets of the problems that could have caused this anomaly.

50 years of working on cars, and I had never seen anything like this...

Tomorrow, we can break in the cam. What a thrash this was...

But, that's hot rodding....

Re: Slant six starting woes...
 

So, today we broke in the cam, fine-tuned the advance and carb mixture. Runs like a decent engine, now,

Now, we can get on with the bidness of installing the headers and turbo, and build the cold-air plumbing.

Sure is taking a long time... :(