Lencos in SS
 

Over heard a rumor of Lenco's (planetary style) transmissions being allowed in SS next year. Anyone else hear about this? Supposedly the Hemi cars are pulling for this for 2010.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I heard something about clutchless trans but running a Lenco is getting out of hand. S/S and stock is almost a joke already not to mention all of the modifications they are doing to the Hemi engine in SS/AH.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Excellent! Maybe Mega Blocks and Merlins are next!!!

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Why not? I know dad is tired of replacing gears, shafts, forks, sliders, and more gears all the time. Not from breakage, necessarily, just abuse.

While we're at it, titanium valves would be a good idea, also.

But there's a million things you could change. Where would you draw the line??

Re: Lencos in SS
 

History keeps repeating itself. Mostly tube chassis and Lencos started to be used in Pro Stock in the early-mid-'70's. And those cars originally started as SS's.

To put things in perspective, the Pro Stock records in the late '70's were in the low to mid 8 second range!
(Before the 500" limit.)

Re: Lencos in SS
 

And, the last car to hold the lbs./cu.in. Pro Stock MPH record (with MPH arguably being the most reliable HP indicator) was a 383" Hemi, run by John Hagen.

I think the Ford Cleveland was pulling more weight per cube than the Hemi at that time, though, so there's not really any way to compare engines; it's all apples and oranges...

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I hear rumor of "clutchless" manual transmissions, not planetary (Lenco type) transmissions.
My understanding is a planetary will probably slow down when compared to a Jerico / G-Force type transmission.
I would be all for it. The transmission looks identical to it's clutch type twin. It's only the internals that are different. Automatics can change everything, look at a Pro-Trans and all of their modifications. Then there are e-shifts, trans-brakes, etc.
Stick racers should have the same benefits and that includes clutch releases comparable to trans-brakes.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, I don't like where this is leading to (just my opinion) :eek: It's bad enough as it is, just taking more and more "drive" out of the "driver" What happened to manual transmission drivers in Stock & Super Stock that actually had to use their coordination skills after they dropped the clutch on the starting line. Might as well allow clutchless transmissions (since most drivers don't use the clutch anyhow) but as far as lencos, give me a break! I could just see a few more years down the road, air shifters would be allowed for the lencos and we would have to start certifying the harness/bracket that holds the CO2 bottle. :mad: I LOVE Super Stock, we don't need to take anymore of the (stock) out of Super "Stock". There is plenty of "Super" in the class already. Clutch/Transmission technology has come along way in the last 10 years, whoever said a (clutch assisted-manual transmission) car was less work than a automatic car? We need to just keep things the way they are and if someone wants a lenco-go run Comp or P/S...:rolleyes:

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I heard that the possiblity of a clutchless is there, but not a planetary. Just the split slider deal like Jeff said. It has to be voted on by the committee. I think it would be a step in the right direction for the modified guys anyway. At least a modified guy with a stick might have a chance against the weight break for autos.

I don't think the Lenco would be anyone's choice in SS even if it was legal.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

One thing about a Lenco it would never break. Why are guys worried about Lenco's when stick guys arent using the clutch now. They are pulling a lever. I had a lenco 20 years ago and I used it 2 years and sold it for more than I paid for it. It is slower than a clutchless no doubt, but how much is stock anymore anyway. I have a pro trans 904 Chrysler that takes a Chevy Convertor. Its so far out who really cares anymore.

Herb Jr

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Super Stock and Stock eliminator are really getting out of hand. This kind of equipment is more like a modified production class. Where is this going to end? The trans case should be OEM.

If I had my way I would have SS and Stock be a foot brake class; no electronics, no wheelie bars, Schubeck lifters, etc. Bring some normalcy back to the two classes.
I would have a more thorough list of OEM options from the factory and not dealer installed items to allow the 55-56-57 Chevys back into stock eliminator.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Hopefully "clutchless" is allowed. There is no et/mph advantage by having one. The major advantage is cost. The cost to run a stick is through the roof and going clutchless alleviates alot of the expense. If there is no performance edge it should be allowed. Might make things more economical to hopefully allow more people to run a stick

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I agree with Jim. SS/ Modified and Modified Stock are giving up 250 lbs to the automatics and need a clutchless trans to compensate for the weight break. These are the only classes that alow that on the same index. All other automatic classes in Comp and SS have seperate indexes. Besides most stick cars are not using the clutch anyway.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Not much stock left in stock.It is really too bad everytime a new rule is allowed we get further away from the class.The end will happen soon enough,then everyone will wonder what went wrong.Not looking to start a internet pissing match just an observation.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I didn't see where they were talking about allowing clutchless in stock. As for allowing it in SS I would think it to be a good idea, I'm unaware of anyone who still uses the clutch in a gear change. The primary benefit I see is less trans breakage, shifting a clutch assisted trans without a clutch can certainly be done however it's very hard on the trans. I've tried both combos in my AX car and the E.T. difference is almost none existant. However the durability is considerably different. This may change some racers thoughts on the prospect of running a lever car, it certainly can't hurt. Joe

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Well, i still use the clutch on every gear change. :cool:

Re: Lencos in SS
 

This is pure insanity . For those who don't understand, a clutch assisted box can be shifted without a clutch, at a cost of between .015 and .020 sec per gear change. that is the time spent in neutral between gears. It also limits your clutch tune up as the flair in engine speed applies more counterweight. Do the math, a clutchless will be at least .05 to .06 quicker. Not to mention the ability to tune the clutch in a larger window.

All this does is escalate the cost of racing. Not a smart move given our present economy.What could possibly be the reason for this? Too hard to police? I don't think so, I can show you how to identify the cheaters in a New York min..
I think we need a explaination. The sportsman classes are not the place for highroller experiments. How about stapling the rule book closed for a few years and letting us catch our breath.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Wrong on all accounts. A "clutchless" trans is quite a bit more expensive than a clutch type one and both require the same clutch setup. If there was no ET advantage, why do most of the guys abuse their clutch type trannies by not clutching. I don't see where you think clutchless will be cheaper. I don't think they should be allowed in Stock or S/S and Lenco's definately NOT!! The excitement went out of Pro Stock the day they allowed Lenco's.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Dale thank you for sharing the video I take it you are in B.C.? We are looking at a new trans now Jerico lists $250 more for a clutchless I hear they hold up better which should cut down on maint. cost. Did you see how hard Schachter had to pull the shifter that shoulder strain will lead to expensive surgery! because we live in Canada with free health care it's of no concern to us. By the way at Indy open tech checked our car for clutchless . Thanx Trevor

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I'm with you Dale ;) I'm sorry, but i can't just let my left leg lay there while i'm banging gears. I don't know, maybe it's all about that number and not having fun and going rounds? If you have a clutch pedal stop, correct free play and are coordinated with a manual transmission, i don't see how it can be that much faster (for me) than shifting without the clutch and i can't justify the extra stress/damage on the (clutch assisted) 4-speed. I pull it out of the car enough as it is! LOL:cool:

Re: Lencos in SS
 

By cheaper I was referring to overall maint. costs. I am aware of the initial purchase price difference, but my point was geared more towards being more economical in the long run. Much easier on parts.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Okay, easier on what parts? I would think the driveline shock would be worse due to less clutch slippage. Maybe the clutch will last a bit longer but with the right setup for your combo and adjusted properly they don't wear out that quickly. Routine maintenace is required on any race car and more so as the power goes up. My Jerico manual says clutch slippage on gear changes is mandatory to prevent trans damage. I know guys with 400+ runs on a Jerico and wonder if a clutchless trans would last that long. Not arguing with you here, just trying to learn something.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Yes I agree it would run cost up however I can't agree with your estimate or .05-.06 E.T. gain. I've tested both styles of trans. in my own car and .02 was the most gain I saw of course results may vary. Yes you can use a more favorable clutch tune however for my money IF allowed I'd jump on the clutchless in a second. Here's why, the initial cost is basically the same the durability of the clutchless unit is far greater, anyone who's ran a clutchassisted and not used the clutch can tell you that the wear is drastically increased with a "small" repair costing $500-$700. With my trans.that translated to about 30 to 40 runs.Racers will always gravitate towards"the fast" stuff, look at the auto trans deal you can run a $1500 Powerglide or you can run a $6000. 3 speed. So with the great price difference of the autos why would cost even be a concern with the manual trans. Joe

Re: Lencos in SS
 

So Joe, what the hell do I do with my three clutch assisted boxes, anybody want to buy them eh? I didn't think so. If you study any data download, you'll see why a clutchless is faster, it has to be, look at your g meter when you make the gear changes. As far as the clutch set up being the same, you need to work on your stuff dude.
Now the million dollar question--------WHY?
Rumor has it that a AH car from the west coast, a car that hasn't even been on the track yet, with a driver who's father works for the Glendora bunch, wants it. Now thats a hell of a price to pay for the rest of us idiots. This is the biggest bunch of BS to come down the pike in quite a while.
As far as I'm concerned they have turned this deal into bracket racing with the correct carb.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

[QUOTE=Tony DePillo;.
As far as I'm concerned they have turned this deal into bracket racing with the correct carb.[/QUOTE]

LOL.......Now thats funny.....Its been that way for years.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Tony D, i'll take one of your G-Forces...a spare is better than no spare! :D

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I'm certainly not trying to argue with you either. It doesnt really matter how much we try to hash this out, it boils down to the fact that it probably will never be allowed. And should it be like anything there are plenty of pros/cons to deal with. But with all the money slung at these cars what the hell is the difference I suppose.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

If you go to the parts for sale section I believe you will find more adds for Jerico wanted than for sale

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Well Guys Ive Thought ALOT of Mods For years Have Changed The Whole STOCK/Super Stock Venues...I Myself Think That LenCos and Planetary Trans should be Disallowed....
As In My Cousin Bullet Bob Reeds Words"I Dont Know What These Kids Are Doin Without Having A Gear Shift To Change Gears With...Taking A Cruise On A Saturday Night".......

No LenCos!!
I Have Tried Them And They Are Actually A More PIA than anything Else AND they are WAY more Expensive...


SS

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I hate to break it to you, but the clutchless trans, not planetary lenco's, is a done deal for 2010. Stick shift racers need to voice their opinion or be prepared for one of two options, either be prepared to shell out six to eight thousand for the gearboxes or get left in the dust by those in your class that do.
Once again, why the change, what problem are they trying to fix?

Re: Lencos in SS
 

[QUOTE=Tony DePillo; either be prepared to shell out six to eight thousand for the gearboxes or get left in the dust by those in your class [/QUOTE]

Have you priced a "PRO TRANS" lately ! Thats an automatic for those of you who are out of the loop.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

I wonder how much outrage their would be if Tech made legal a ZF 5 speed auto in any Automatic class.Same issue, do you spend $7500.00, or become a also ran?
That's what we're talking about here, making all of the equipment out there obsolete with the stroke of a pen for no apparent reason. Let them have it in AH, it's all the same combination. the the rest of us the hell alone.
There are still Sportsman racers out there who have worked hard to get to the top of their game, at great personal sacrifice. To pull a stunt like this is unbelievable. If you need to police clutchless, I can show you at least three methods that don't involve rocking the car and none of them involve as much as a dirty hand on the part of tech. All can be done with the current tech staff.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Tony, I feel your pain I've got a G-Force Clutch assisted on the shelf for my AX car.That's nearly $7000 for a trans. that may not be competitive anymore. And yes I've watched my Gmeter with both trans in the car, actually the accel rate would go higher with the clutch assisted mainly due to being in nuetral for a millisecond. The main difference is my clutchless went many- many runs with no issues, my clutch assisted required repair after 30-50 runs. I'm not advocating for or against the change as my current car has a "grannie" tranny. It's just always been an issue that what we have now is going to be obsolete next year, tricker-faster parts are always comoing down the pike. The question is do we spend the money? Like so many things in racing we rarely get a voice in the decision making, they make the rules and we try to race within them. Joe

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Joe, maybe I need a clutchless so I could beat you for once!
I have enough trouble buying diesel, $20.00 per gallon fuel, hotel rooms, entry fee's, valve springs, $10.00 per quart oil. Those are slow small bleeds. $15,000.00 transmissions, that ain't going to happen.
My first GF4A got over 75 runs on it. I dont think anyones clutchless will do any better. 75 runs for me over two years of service.
I just want to know who lit the fuse on this can of S@$t and why.

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Probably some of the same group that decided PG cars needed 3 speeds in SS.

:mad:

Re: Lencos in SS
 

The question of who lit the fuse that's easy, look around at the giant stackers and toter homes. It's my opinion that 90% of the rule changes are desired by 10% of the racers. Just look around at all the new Cobalts and G5's. If these people can go out and buy a new car at $85,000-$100,000 per do you think a clutchless is an issue for them? Me I can't swing it if I couldn't build my own car and engine I'd be gone I like most of you have to work for a living. However I still like to have fast stuff, I have to decide where best to spend my money to accomplish that. Tony, you had me dead to rights the last time we raced, no one was more suprised to see I'd won than me. I told you the first time we raced I have alot of respect for anyone out there rowing the gears. After 25 years of stick racing this was my first car to have a fluid drive, I've got to say it's not nearly as much fun as yanking a lever. Joe

Re: Lencos in SS
 

and for the record, the weight break is 5% not 250 lbs. More like 150 at 3000 calculated weight. I definitely agree with those who don't like this rule because it only helps out the wealthier racers. I still run a PG in my junk because its alot more reliable and consistent and inexpensive or it was anyways and because I already owned a bunch of PG parts back when I had to buy a S/S car because they killed my class(anybody wanna buy an ole chassis craft car, cheap?). Heck I run a PG in my wannabe Comp car.. lol

Course I've determined that it basically does you no good to come on these forums and speak your mind, especially about costs. It seems the one santioning body only goes the more expensive route seemingly intentionally just to stick it to the ones that complain then.. pretty much sucks anymore

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Is it the dedicated Sponser who gets the benefit of this type rule, the "close friend" of the tech department who gets someones "ear" to even consider it?the performance advantages? Obviously they have NEVER cared about the $ cost for the parts but sometimes the reliability...has its points in the decisions...

Re: Lencos in SS
 

Mr. DePillo, you stated that the clutchless transmission acceptance is a "done deal" for 2010, where did you you hear or read this information? Also, if this is indeed true, does anybody know if G Force or Jerico could retrofit our current transmissions to the clutchless configuration? I just checked out both Jerico`s and G Forces websites, on a new transmission, a clutchless Jerico is $650. more than a clutch assist DR4. A G Force clutchless 5 speed is $400. more than a clutch assist version, I couldn`t find a clutchless 4 speed listed on the G Force site, do they make one? I have 2 clutch assist Jerico DR4`s, and personally, have been very pleased with their reliabiliy, the only parts that I have ever broke were the 2 gears for 3rd gear ,once, in 9 seasons in my 10.0@132 bracket car. The trans in my Stocker has never been hurt. Granted my cars are both slower than many S/S cars, or some of the higher class Stockers. On a faster car, can anybody say for certain that the clutchless trans would be more durable than a clutch assist unit? Also, would a clutchless trans be any quicker than a clutch assist trans that happened to be shifted without the clutch? Personally, I wouldn`t want to have to buy any new transmission (s), but if my old ones could be upgraded for a reasonable cost, I may be interested in that option, assuming this ruling is indeed, a certainty

Re: Lencos in SS
 

How would a clutchless trany work in a race situation where you may be on and off the gas. My understanding of how a clutchless trany works is that when you get off the gas it is it pops out of gear, am I wrong on this.

Jeff Colvert SS/G 4456