HOME FORUM RULES CONTACT
     
   
   

Go Back   CLASS RACER FORUM > Class Racer Forums > Stock and Super Stock Tech


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-31-2021, 12:00 PM   #11
340Cuda
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 1,565
Likes: 3,121
Liked 676 Times in 289 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

Of course a lot of pump gas has ethanol and I think a lot of it is also oxygenated at different times of the year.
340Cuda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2021, 01:29 PM   #12
Mark Yacavone
Veteran Member
 
Mark Yacavone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Miles From Nowhere
Posts: 7,392
Likes: 2,563
Liked 4,418 Times in 1,683 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken robinson View Post
Wow no fuel check , alittle nitro goes alone way my friend . If your looking to save money on race fuel shop around or buy in bulk with a friend and store it correctly ...Just saying ...
Yep. As much as I don't like the cost of racing gas, you're going to need it . That and fuel checks, if you're going to have class runoffs, heads up in the eliminator, qualifying for 128 cars, national records, etc.
Can you imagine what some racers would come up with? Let's see what happens with ERC ,mixed with Nitro, a dash of C25 ...sorta like "gain of function" research ;-)
__________________
We are lucky we don't get as much Government as we pay for..... Will Rogers
Mark Yacavone is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked
Old 10-31-2021, 01:36 PM   #13
MR DERBY CITY
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Derby City, USA
Posts: 3,293
Likes: 836
Liked 6,543 Times in 1,267 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

It’s about time we hear from a certain E/SA Camaro racer that picked up ALMOST 3 tenths with a Pro stock ERC blend that he stumbled upon. Not calling him out by any means but MAYBE he will share his story, OR MAYBE not ….
MR DERBY CITY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2021, 08:05 PM   #14
Henrys Toy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 233
Likes: 3,218
Liked 441 Times in 152 Posts
Smile Re: Pump gas in stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR DERBY CITY View Post
Yes, you can run pump gas…NO , it will not pass fuel check. When I started racing stock eliminator in the late seventies PUMP gas was legal.
Good evening,
Yes pump gas in a low to mid compression engine is faster.
I used to get pump gas to pass by pumping air into it like a fish tank. The oxygen would boil off some of the chemicals in the pump gas and it would barely pass. Then NHRA started asking what I was putting in the gas to make it pass, I didn't have the heart to tell them it was what I was removing. Pump gas is no longer "gas " its fuel! There are some many chemicals in it that there isn't enough room for Gas. So the last time I tried to run it and NHRA told me - NO MORE PUMP GAS.
Its possible at this point that with all the chemicals in pump gas, maybe NHRA feels that they can't police it. Any way Its a heck of a lot cheaper and it would make sense (economically) to use it, but policing it is probably the root cause for not allowing it. That's pretty much my take from what I experienced in the past.

Respectfully,
Henry Kunz 1534 H/SA
Henrys Toy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2021, 11:35 PM   #15
Darrel Goheen
Member
 
Darrel Goheen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 379
Likes: 226
Liked 70 Times in 31 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

I guess it isn’t a big deal. I’ll use pump gas when bracket racing and use race fuel at NHRA events. Thanks for the discussion.
__________________
Darrel Goheen 785-623-7021
Stock Eliminator 585 94 Camaro Z/28 LT1/ET 585 67 Chevelle 427
Tehnician for JustAnswer.com
Darrel Goheen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2021, 11:22 AM   #16
Jim Parsons
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Kearney Mo
Posts: 188
Likes: 344
Liked 126 Times in 23 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

Darrell, regarding your question about pump gas being quicker than race gas this is my assessment based on study and some actual race experience. Race gas is really about “octane rating” to prevent detonation and not about being more powerful.

With the laws and liabilities limiting lead content the race gas companies had to start using lots of “additives” to boost the octane level, that’s also the sweet smell you get. Today there isn’t much “gas” in race gas, another reason it cost more. These additives hurt power in a couple of ways they burn slow during combustion which changes their pressure rise on the piston and spreads it over a longer period which helps with potential detonation but not power. You typically can run a little less ignition timing with lower octane fuel. Actually the biggest reason is lower octane pump gas typically has more BTU’s of energy per pound than our legal race gas! So in your case with relative low compression you don’t need the octane to counter detonation it then makes sense that it will be faster when used. I proved this to myself when living in Denver as I took race gas out of my stocker and replaced with pump gas and picked up a tenth! This was back before specific race gas’ was mandated by NHRA and the old pump gas was still legal.
Why then do we run race gas? A couple of reasons, when pump gas had to comply with clean air regulations and started adding oxygenated additives, i.e. corn alcohol + other things NHRA’s compliance testing at the time for fuel went out the window. By them restricting us to Race gas they could set tight standards for each and compare when testing at the track, that’s why we have to declare our fuel type and brand. The other reason I suspect is they saw an additional money $$ source from the Fuel companies as each has to pay to be on the “accepted” fuel list.

I'm not saying you cant add "stuff" to gas and make it more powerful such as ERC and VP does with some of there highly originated fuels but those are thankfully not on our approved list as they are harmful and more expensive.

Hope this helps and yes there is more to the story but this is my quick take on your question.

Jim Parsons

(Past FIA international Fuel and Lubricant Committee member)


FYI: I tried sending this to you as a private message but it said you box was full.
Jim Parsons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2021, 12:08 PM   #17
Mark Yacavone
Veteran Member
 
Mark Yacavone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Miles From Nowhere
Posts: 7,392
Likes: 2,563
Liked 4,418 Times in 1,683 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

Excellent post by Jim Parsons.
I knew the basics, but that spells it all out.

Now, for the other experts on this subject, what is the low end brand that will pass , or be passed off as something else? I had heard that, a while back, some guys were using AV 100 LL , and calling it something else on the list. Apparently, NHRA figured this out, and put a stop to it, somehow.
PM me, if you don't want to post this info ;-)
__________________
We are lucky we don't get as much Government as we pay for..... Will Rogers
Mark Yacavone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2021, 01:51 PM   #18
Stan Weiss
Senior Member
 
Stan Weiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Phila, PA
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
Liked 529 Times in 283 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Parsons View Post
Darrell, regarding your question about pump gas being quicker than race gas this is my assessment based on study and some actual race experience. Race gas is really about “octane rating” to prevent detonation and not about being more powerful.

With the laws and liabilities limiting lead content the race gas companies had to start using lots of “additives” to boost the octane level, that’s also the sweet smell you get. Today there isn’t much “gas” in race gas, another reason it cost more. These additives hurt power in a couple of ways they burn slow during combustion which changes their pressure rise on the piston and spreads it over a longer period which helps with potential detonation but not power. You typically can run a little less ignition timing with lower octane fuel. Actually the biggest reason is lower octane pump gas typically has more BTU’s of energy per pound than our legal race gas! So in your case with relative low compression you don’t need the octane to counter detonation it then makes sense that it will be faster when used. I proved this to myself when living in Denver as I took race gas out of my stocker and replaced with pump gas and picked up a tenth! This was back before specific race gas’ was mandated by NHRA and the old pump gas was still legal.
Why then do we run race gas? A couple of reasons, when pump gas had to comply with clean air regulations and started adding oxygenated additives, i.e. corn alcohol + other things NHRA’s compliance testing at the time for fuel went out the window. By them restricting us to Race gas they could set tight standards for each and compare when testing at the track, that’s why we have to declare our fuel type and brand. The other reason I suspect is they saw an additional money $$ source from the Fuel companies as each has to pay to be on the “accepted” fuel list.

I'm not saying you cant add "stuff" to gas and make it more powerful such as ERC and VP does with some of there highly originated fuels but those are thankfully not on our approved list as they are harmful and more expensive.

Hope this helps and yes there is more to the story but this is my quick take on your question.

Jim Parsons

(Past FIA international Fuel and Lubricant Committee member)


FYI: I tried sending this to you as a private message but it said you box was full.

The lower the CR the quicker a peak cylinder pressure will decay. If I can have a lower peak cylinder pressure but have it at a point farther ATDC it is possible to have the same if not more turning force on the crank. In many cases peak cylinder pressure is 10 to 14 ATDC where a good amount of that force is trying to push the crank out of the block. Remember how the rod crank angle plays into using cylinder pressure as turning force.

Stan
Stan Weiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2021, 01:53 PM   #19
MR DERBY CITY
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Derby City, USA
Posts: 3,293
Likes: 836
Liked 6,543 Times in 1,267 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

Let me address one other thing regarding fuel. Racers are very creative. The fuel in the cell /tank is not ALWAYS the fuel that the racer submits for fuel check. ….
MR DERBY CITY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2021, 02:45 PM   #20
Billy Nees
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: On a hilltop in Pa.
Posts: 4,212
Likes: 3,066
Liked 6,730 Times in 1,512 Posts
Default Re: Pump gas in stock

I don't understand............................;-)
__________________
Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS

Make tech "TECH" again!
Billy Nees is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright © Class Racer.com. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners.