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Old 04-04-2010, 08:53 AM   #11
art leong
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

I tend to think the valve hit the piston after the problems with the rod started. Maybe the rod bolts stretched causing the hit.
If the bearing looked good but there was heat showing on the rod could side clearance have been a problem? The bearing should have been toast way before the rod showed heat.
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Old 04-04-2010, 08:56 AM   #12
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

Hang in there,

Good Luck

Last edited by LSP; 04-04-2010 at 09:50 AM. Reason: already posted
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Old 04-04-2010, 09:20 AM   #13
Rich Biebel
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

If you ran the engine to 8000 on the dyno.......I would have to ask if the HP and TQ was still near peak or at peak........Those numbers would indicate if the valvetrain was still stable or going into valve float. What kind of lifters do these engines use? I am sure they are rollers but are they solid rollers or hydrualic rollers? Was the engine looked over carefully after the dyno session? A valvetrain exam and an oil filter cut open and checked? Just some questions here nothing else.

I have seen engines run on a dyno that had an issue during testing and that engine failed soon after it was raced......Not saying that's what happened here but it's just a thought......

How heavy are the pistons and pins in one of these engines? I don't have a real warm and fuzzy feeling about spinning an engine to 8000+ with import I beam rods in it......I would at the very least replace the bolts with the best I could find.......
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:55 PM   #14
Chris "drooze" Wertman
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

Well, I will only say this in as much as my possible "theory" of how and what may have caused the whole debacle to occur, and this comes from my experience, albeit in a different design engine, we see it happen all the time, at extrodinary revs (usually 12k) with a trans or clutch breakage where it freespins, then the valve contact the piston, on an engine with a stable valve train to 15k in these cases however the damage to the bearings can be seen at times, they are rollers, and different granted, seen it too many times to count, those are however ohc engines, and of older design BUT that is what led me to consider it as a possiblity.

Now......after talking it through with a couple of others on the phone....I still cant say the PTV occured before or after. BUT you are correct and that was one thing I didnt consider it was mentioned to me on the phone, and I think Art mentioned it too. Either when it lost its bearing or.
But it did do pretty massive valvetrain damage, a broken shaft and split the rocker shaft mounts in 2 so it was a pretty substansial hit, that was also what partly led me to believe the rod was still with bearing and solidly affixed to the crank.

The other reason is the location of the hit on the piston IN the exhaust valve pocket at say 2 degrees retrded there is a PTV issue on the exhaust.


In as much as the wrist pin seizure, what is left of the bosses on the piston are clean with no galling. I think it was a "wood chipper" effect of the rotation of the crank afterward removing the pin and rod from the piston. Just from what we see.

To me, the rod failure is a symptom of something, not the cause, I dont think you are saying any different and I have drawn no lines in the sand and am only trying to have a working theory.

But the rod bolt failure and the piston to valve contact is a plausible explanation. The rod bolts both massivley failed and instantly.

The bluing bothers me, its not as bad as Ive seen but its bad.

In closing this thought process, please dont stop or think Ive mad a final decision on anything, far from it, I know more and more possiblities and some things I just didnt think of before this thread was posted.

THAT was part of the goal....

Keep it coming....

Thanks

Chris and Dave

I am uploading pics right now, if there is anything you think seeing would be helpful that isnt show please ask away and Ill shoot it.....and upload it.


I
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich View Post
Drooze,
Valve contact with a piston won't cause "peening" of a bearing, nor bluing of a crank or a rod. The valve contact came when the piston got loose from the crank. You have two instances of piston to valve contact on one piston. That tells you it was coming loose once and there was minor contact. In order to hurt a rod or a rod bearing, the contact with the valve would have to be severe enough to do massive valvetrain damage, either in one location, or spread over an area.


You had a failure in #3 rod, not in the valvetrain. Period. Either the rod bolts failed because they were either over stressed or not fully preloaded, or the rod got out of round and grabbed the crank and it failed the bolts. Bluing is one of two things, poor lubrication, or a rod bore out of round. The only other possibility, and it is rare, is a crack in the crank, which, by the way causes the journal to be out of round, and usually causes an oil pressure leak.

One other possibility is the wrist pin seizing in the piston, that will either pull the rod throw out of the crank, pull the wrist pin out of the piston, or pull the rod off of the crank. It will be obvious if the wrist pin was seized.

If you've ever seen a timing chain system work, you'll know that what you're describing is nearly impossible. Timing chains don't work that way, and harmonics won't make them work that way.

You are free to believe as you wish, the parts, money, and time belong to you and your father. I've been doing this for 30 years, and Adger has been doing this about as long as I've been alive, that makes for about 80 years of combined experience, and it looks to me like neither of us feel your explanation is plausible.
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

--QUOTE=Rich Biebel;179865--If you ran the engine to 8000 on the dyno.......I would have to ask if the HP and TQ was still near peak or at peak........Those numbers would indicate if the valvetrain was still stable or going into valve float. What kind of lifters do these engines use? I am sure they are rollers but are they solid rollers or hydrualic rollers? Was the engine looked over carefully after the dyno session? A valvetrain exam and an oil filter cut open and checked? Just some questions here nothing else.

Nope still climbing and I didnt like spinning it that fast, so I was the one and the reason that said no more over 72, we can predict fuel and timing from there.

Yes motor was checked after Dyno, all looked good, heads off, no smacks, so it wasnt "earlier" all looked good, even filter was clear of anything but expected break in debris and even that was very light.

They are hydraulic rollers, and are good to at least 8500.....ask Irv and Duell, Jerry, etc........they are amazing to me for a stock piece.

Good salient questions all of them, these are the answers....lol

I have seen engines run on a dyno that had an issue during testing and that engine failed soon after it was raced......Not saying that's what happened here but it's just a thought......

Its a very good point

How heavy are the pistons and pins in one of these engines? I don't have a real warm and fuzzy feeling about spinning an engine to 8000+ with import I beam rods in it......I would at the very least replace the bolts with the best I could find.....

Piston with pin around.620...yeah boat anchors....and the rods 600-620.... and yeah Import beams scare the psheszzz outta me too but right now its the only approved rod, I called a couple of people for this motor and noone could get me anything approved, Eagle was about useless and had no care. K1 is trying but falling into NHRA issues that arent issues that now are...who knows...they are trying. for an H beam anyway.

Well waiting on a couple extra sets of hands here to get somethings done.

I just heard that there is another bolt for these rods. Better, gonna track that down FAST....like real fast.....

AND I will say today the bearings look worse in the light....daylight, so maybe , quite possibly oil starvation was in fact the culprit. The mains have some bluing at the parting lines and some galling . Trying to build another one as well as trying to diagnose is too difficult at the same time. With what I know for sure, what I think I know, some things I didnt want in the other engine but were there, and the clearances being in my opinion and others here including your own too tight.....well.....

For today and tommorow Im going to go strictly back to building what i think should be built.....if it comes apart then its 100% my failure, if it dosent then its my success.....

For certain things like rods, bolts, etc....unfortunatley I have no legal options.....so Im stuck.

All the Pics are here btw, I will leave you with a few "fun" ones.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/newhemi...7623768319716/




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Old 04-04-2010, 01:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

Quote:
Originally Posted by art leong View Post
I tend to think the valve hit the piston after the problems with the rod started. Maybe the rod bolts stretched causing the hit.
If the bearing looked good but there was heat showing on the rod could side clearance have been a problem? The bearing should have been toast way before the rod showed heat.
Side clearance looked good before chassis dyno....didnt look after but cant imagine that much lunch after engine dyno....looked good was checked , but I just dono, what makes 1 fail faster than another, clearance.........

The rod bolts stretchin could have cause a hit I guess, anything over 080 would have caused an exhaust hit, in the pics though, well for it to hit that square in the pocket it still had to be attached to the rod I think and it was a tdc when it happened, but streched bolts, certianly I think now, didnt before....or a shelled bearing maybe.

The force at which it hit causing the valve train damage....thats whats got me puzzled....
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

looking over the pictures it looks as if the bolts stretched and broke and the rest is damage from rotating mass ,,in one of the pictures of the bearing halfs it looks as if one of the tangs is missing or flat(spun bearing?)(could be caught up in the damage) ,,,one thing i would check of whats left of the 7 rods and pistons is if the big ends are still round ,,maybe the rpm is taxing the bolts or the bottom half of the rod cap is just flexing egg shape ,try to retorque the bolts to see if they will turn(they shouldnt)

i hate to see that damge on all the hard work and money that go's into this stuff

just my 2 cents gmonde
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:15 PM   #18
art leong
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

I think the rod bolt failure is the cause. Thats a heavy piston and rod. And when they change direction on the end of the exhaust stroke. There is a lot of force to make the change.
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:01 PM   #19
Chris "drooze" Wertman
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Default Ninjas Caused DP #24 Engine failure....

Quote:
Originally Posted by art leong View Post
I think the rod bolt failure is the cause. Thats a heavy piston and rod. And when they change direction on the end of the exhaust stroke. There is a lot of force to make the change.
Art....I now would agree 100%.....after what Alan, and some others have said, and thinking and rethinking it through, as well as getting the spec on the bolts that were in there, AND yesterday I didnt pull it down, the old man did I was busy with other things, he left 2 rods in and the bolts were in fact "loose" or as gmonde said, well 1 on each "turned" it shouldnt have, no doubts....

Im still a little at a loss as to how exactly I did the valve train damage but if it let loose at the very top of the stroke which it would have well I guess thats where the PTV contact occured....it must have "bounced" then off that valve as there is no other damage to the chamber or piston and headed down to the "rod chipper"

I looked very carefully at the bolt shears 1 is clean the other torn to a 45 degree peak across the plane.

So I may have ovrthought the living ****e out of it, but thats ok......"I get by with a little help from my friends".......and I mean that to all that a)Talked me through, down and over it. b)were constructive and helpful and that was every single response in this thread. every single one......

Thanks to all the CR people and I mean that....

I had only what I have seen before, and it was a "chicken and egg problem" and it didnt meet occams razor, this does and it shows to be true.

The rods are actually round (im suprised I had heard others engines after being run were not) AND the rods didnt break, the bolts did, much easier to find a suitible high tensile replacment than get a rod approved.

I have 2 sets of bolts here (good) I am shocked at how close they measure within .007 each ?!? across 16....maybe its a batch thing. BUT the bolts that came out of the engine ? I quit at 5, I could SEE differences....now I didnt measure them new....but that seems like a lot of variation....Ill bring em in a bag......

2 days ago my daughter warned me what caused it and I didnt listen....we were driving down the road past a stretch of wooded marshlands, she said "daddy I know what lives in there" she exclaimed....I said really, expecting to hear owls , turtles....NINJAS, they live in the TREES ! I almost wrecked laughing....She just turned 4....a bit later in the day something was amiss and she said matter of factly....Ninjas did it.....

You would THINK Hemi Ninjas wear orange and would be easy to spot.....hmmmmm......damm ninjas...

Thanks all.....see Im trainable And grateful.......

The egg came first it would look the the chicken smacked the valve...
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

See my next post....oops...
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