Best Pontiac Powered Super Stockers

[oldskool]

Speakin of records. Gary Moore set a speed record, at the Amarillo World Finals, in '72, in SS/J.

Sorry to report that I just found out that Gary passed away only a couple of weeks before I posted this.

[BRINK]

Originally Posted by oldskool

2016 contd.

At the Route 66 Nats, Greg Meyer was #5 @ -.915.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

At the Mile-High Nats, Carroll was #5 @ -.815. Brad was #15.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 1-4, Vic Santos was #2 @ -.980.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 7-4, Leo was #8 @ -.823.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

At the Sonoma Nats, Leo was #15 @ -.720.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 5-3, Carroll was #12 @ -.796. Robert Cruzen was #18 @ -.715.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

Robert made the semi, where, for whatever reason, cut a real slow light.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

LOS 5-4 was a doubleheader race, behind 5-3. Carroll & Robert were #12 & #24 this time.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 5-5, Greg was #5 @ -.782.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

At the Lucas Oil Nats, Greg was #2 @ -.878. Bill Rink was #6 @ -.797.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 1-6, John Agneta was #17 @ -.781.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 5-6, Carroll was #5 @ -.981. Greg was #11 @ -.906. Robert was #18 @ -.767.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 6-6, Leo was #5 @ -.758.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

At the Carolina Nats, Peter was #30 @ -.694, & won the race !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

At the Midwest Nats, Mike Morgan was #8 @ -.961. Greg was #20 @ -.872. Bill Rink was #23 @ -.843. Looks like Peter had problems.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 7-5, Don K. was #3 @ -.854. Carroll was #4 @ -.836. Leo was #17 @ -.596. Looks like Brad had problems in qualifying.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

LOS 7-6 was the 2nd race of a doubleheader. Carroll was #2 @ -.970. Brad was #14 @ -.769. Don K. was #29.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

At the Dodge Nats, Sam Biondo was #12 @ -.779.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 4-6, Robert was #13 @ -.836, & got RU.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 7-2 make-up race, Leo got RU.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

@ LOS 7-7, Robert was #8 @ -.933, Don K. was #13 @ -.890. Keri was #29 @ -.811. Scott was #45 @ -.697. Leo was #51 @ -.629. Larry Maxwell was #90.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

At the Pomona Finals, Brad was #22 @ -.811. Keri was #26 @ -.736. Leo was #31 @ -.706.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

That's a wrap for 2016. As always, info about additional Pontiac V8 powered wins, not covered here, is welcome. Still several quick Pontiacs. In today's competitive racing, it takes exceptionally good drivers to go rounds & win races. That's why the really good drivers have lots of div & nat event wins, during their racing career.

I think this is the 1st time Larry Maxwell's GT car has turned up on a list I posted. To me, it's a very interesting build. The car is a '68 Bird. Looks like it could be a Stocker. And, it was apparently built to run just a hair under it's index. Has a Pontiac 350 for power. Just presumption on my part, but I assume that the 350 is all a planned part of the build, so that a big-tire set-up won't be needed.

Yes, I know that Bill Rink & Mike Morgan are going quick with Pontiac 350's. But, Larry's 350 build is different. Dan Fletcher has proven, beyond any shadow of doubt, that you can win races without being the quickest car in your class. On almost every list I've seen him on, which is now quite a large number, he is very near the bottom, just a safe distance below his index.

But, who knows, Larry may be planning a quicker set-up, at some point.

Larry Maxwell is running the same motor as mine. The one year only 1974 GTO 350 200 HP w/#46 heads and 7.62 compression.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by BRINK

Larry Maxwell is running the same motor as mine. The one year only 1974 GTO 350 200 HP w/#46 heads and 7.62 compression.

Thanks for that info !

If this info is correct, looks like he gets 6 more hp, in GT/ auto trans, than you have in a '74 Vent. Don't know how NHRA gives the same engine a different hp factor, depending on which body it's in or whether there is a manual or auto trans behind it. But hey, you current racers know a LOT more about all that than me.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

Assuming by the times he's running that he doesn't have an all-out Parsons & Meyers Super Stock 350. Or does he ? Just ASSUMING that he built the car, on purpose, to run a safe distance below his index, and maintain the rest of the car in near Stock Elim form. But, if this assumption is NOT correct, I'd like to have that info.

Just looked up some times run by the '74 GTO Stocker driven by Brad Koivisto. It ran some 11.20's.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

So, a strong Stock legal '74 350 engine will provide enuff power to run under the GT index. Don't need a huge roller cam & alum intake. So, it makes perfect sense that a good 350 build, with a bigger than Stock legal, flat tappet or small roller cam should run under the GT index.

There are obviously 400, 428, & 455 engines which can also be built to run under their GT index. But, I figure the 350 will require a bit less traction, to hook it up. So, if building a low budget Pontiac powered GT car, the 350 seems like a good choice.

And, I've already mentioned the fact that some of the 400 powered Stockers have run SS, at a few races, & ran under their index. For example: The SS/IA index is 10.70. There are some of the 1st gen Bird Stockers, which will fit that class, which can run under that index, in Stock legal form.

Just all food for thought. If somebody wants to get into SS racing, but wants to do it on a lower budget than building or buying an all-out, big tire SS car, there are ways to do it, with Pontiac power.

[oldskool]

I'd love for somebody to start a low budget Pontiac powered GT build thread on this site. Hey, it wouldn't be a "dime rocket". But I think it could be done for a reasonable price. Could also double as a bracket car, for those who don't live close to a lot of tracks that run SS, & don't have the funds for long hauls. But, I know that lots of guys here don't like bracket racing. So, that's all I'll say about that.

If I had to take a guess as to what the cheapest Pontiac Body Stocker roller might be, I'd have to say it would probably be a 3rd gen Bird. When I was gonna build a Pontiac powered bracket car, back in 2007, there were lots of 3rd gen Birds around, cheap. I bought several. Max price was $500. So, I figure it was the same all over the country. That's why I assume there were lots of Stockers built, using 3rd gen Bird bodies. So, that means that there should be some decent 3rd gen Stocker rollers out there, for sale, which would work good as a 350 Pontiac powered GT car.

Glanced thru the thread that's going now, where guys are talkin about all the cars they have, or know of, that are not being used. There are occasionally guys come on here asking about a car to buy. Maybe that would be a good way to help get somebody started in class racing. They could start off with a decent Stocker roller, which mostly just needs a trans & engine.

As you guys well know, there are some body styles that have had all the possible combos wrung out, & can no longer be competitive, on a level many insist on. One of these cars might make a good candidate for a low budget, just-under-the-index, Pontiac powered build.

I'd prefer a Pontiac body, such as a Bird or Ventura. But, the little 428 powered Cobalts have proven that a Pontiac engine will power a Chevy body just as good as it will a Pontiac body. The engine don't care what brand name is on the car. But, it has to be a GM body, which will work with a Pontiac V8 engine, & be NHRA SS legal.

I know from past experience that LOTS of Chevy guys cringe at even the thought of a Pontiac engine in a Chevy. But hey, for you guys, we can consider an Olds or Buick body. I assume there may be some Olds & Buick X-bodies out there somewhere. Anyhow there should be some 70's GM X-bodies, as well as GM 2nd & 3rd gen F-bodies out there, that are just settin around gathering dust & rust.

Anybody here know of one that would work, which might help some new guy get started with a cheap Pontiac powered GT car ?

A '77 350 or 400 Pontiac engine would probably be my choice, because, the 6X heads required are still plentiful & fairly cheap. These engines have been very competitive, in stock & SS, for a long time. So, building one to just barely run under, in hot weather, shouldn't break the bank.

If anybody has a good roller prospect for such a project, which you'll sell for a reasonable price, post that info. Then I'll go on some of the Pontiac sites & see if I can find a guy who is willing to give this thing a shot. There are lots of bracket racers who are spending enuff on bracket racing, so that they could build a low budget GT car for the same money, if they just knew how.

Guys here with the know-how could provide needed info on the build thread, & help locate some decent used parts, that will be needed. Hey it would be sorta like a forum project. From what I've read, a lot of members here are even older than me & no longer race, themselves. Hey, this could be a way to help pass on some of what you learned, & maybe help a younger guy get into SS racing.

What do ya'll think ? Anybody interested ?

I remember when I 1st found this site, how much I enjoyed following Brent Flynn's low budget Stocker build. Maybe a low budget Pontiac powered GT build would also generate some interest. I don't have the knowledge & experience most of you guys have. But, I'll definitely do all I can to help with info, parts round-up, etc. Let's do it !

[oldskool]

Since DRC don't have records from the '70's & '80's, I have no way, that I know of now, to get race results from the '70's.

So, I'll ask here. Sonny Ray's '72 GTO won some nat events In the late '70's & early '80's. Before that, what was the last non-wagon SS Pontiac to win a nat event ? I say non-wagon, because I know that Jack Mullins won 2, in '75.

Just don't know what other non-wagon SS Pontiacs won Nat events. Anybody know of one, or more, before 1998 ?

[BRINK]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Thanks for that info !

If this info is correct, looks like he gets 6 more hp, in GT/ auto trans, than you have in a '74 Vent. Don't know how NHRA gives the same engine a different hp factor, depending on which body it's in or whether there is a manual or auto trans behind it. But hey, you current racers know a LOT more about all that than me.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

Assuming by the times he's running that he doesn't have an all-out Parsons & Meyers Super Stock 350. Or does he ? Just ASSUMING that he built the car, on purpose, to run a safe distance below his index, and maintain the rest of the car in near Stock Elim form. But, if this assumption is NOT correct, I'd like to have that info.

Just looked up some times run by the '74 GTO Stocker driven by Brad Koivisto. It ran some 11.20's.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

So, a strong Stock legal '74 350 engine will provide enuff power to run under the GT index. Don't need a huge roller cam & alum intake. So, it makes perfect sense that a good 350 build, with a bigger than Stock legal, flat tappet or small roller cam should run under the GT index.

There are obviously 400, 428, & 455 engines which can also be built to run under their GT index. But, I figure the 350 will require a bit less traction, to hook it up. So, if building a low budget Pontiac powered GT car, the 350 seems like a good choice.

And, I've already mentioned the fact that some of the 400 powered Stockers have run SS, at a few races, & ran under their index. For example: The SS/IA index is 10.70. There are some of the 1st gen Bird Stockers, which will fit that class, which can run under that index, in Stock legal form.

Just all food for thought. If somebody wants to get into SS racing, but wants to do it on a lower budget than building or buying an all-out, big tire SS car, there are ways to do it, with Pontiac power.

The 350 engine from 1974 increased to 256 in all RWD GT's regardless of the car that it is in.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by BRINK

The 350 engine from 1974 increased to 256 in all RWD GT's regardless of the car that it is in.

Yeah, maybe I didn't make clear what I was trying to say.

IF, & ONLY if the info on the site I'm linking is correct (and I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't), then:

(1) The hp factor for Ventura reg SS, with both man & auto trans, as well as GT cars with man trans, is 250hp.

(2) For all other non-Ventura bodies running reg SS, with both man & auto trans, the factor is 254hp.

(3) For all GT RWD vehicles, runing an auto trans, the factor is 256hp.

So, if this info IS correct, NHRA has assigned 3 different hp factors to exactly the same engine.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, I'm wondering why a Ventura running reg SS, gets only 250hp, while all other bodies running regular SS, with the same engine, get 254hp. And, why all GT cars running an auto trans get 256hp, while GT cars running a man trans get only 250hp. Another way to say it is: What does the body style or trans type have to do with the power an engine makes. Just my hillbilly common sense tells me that if an engine makes 250 dyno hp, that engine would make the same amount of power, at the flywheel, regardless of what vehicle that engine was put into. But, obviously, that's NOT the way NHRA sees it.

And, obviously, NHRA does this with some other brands as well, since I've read on this site of others complaining about it. If I understand it correctly, SOMETIMES this difference is based on the fact that a single person, or more, has run really quick with a particular engine, in a particular vehicle, whereas other vehicles, with exactly the same engine, have not run as quick, therefore ONLY the quick combo gets the hp increase. Assuming that's the way it works, in SOME cases. ???

[BRINK]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, maybe I didn't make clear what I was trying to say.

IF, & ONLY if the info on the site I'm linking is correct (and I have know way of knowing if it is or isn't), then:

(1) The hp factor for Ventura reg SS, with both man & auto trans, as well as GT cars with man trans, is 250hp.

(2) For all other non-Ventura bodies running reg SS, with both man & auto trans, the factor is 254hp.

(3) For all GT RWD vehicles, runing an auto trans, the factor is 256hp.

So, if this info IS correct, NHRA has assigned 3 different hp factors to exactly the same engine.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, I'm wondering why a Ventura running reg SS, gets only 250hp, while all other bodies running regular SS, with the same engine, get 254hp. And, why all GT cars running an auto trans get 256hp, while GT cars running a man trans get only 250hp. Another way to say it is: What does the body style or trans type have to do with the power an engine makes. Just my hillbilly common sense tells me that if an engine makes 250 dyno hp, that engine would make the same amount of power, at the flywheel, regardless of what vehicle that eninge was put into. But, obviously, that's NOT the way NHRA sees it.

And, obviously, NHRA does this with some other brands as well, since I've read on this site of others complaining about it. If I understand it correctly, SOMETIMES this difference is based on the fact that a single person, or more, has run really quick with a particular engine, in a particular vehicle, whereas other vehicles, with exactly the same engine, have not run as quick, therefore ONLY the quick combo gets the hp increase. Assuming that's the way it works, in SOME cases. ???

Let me clear up the confusion. There presently is only one 1974 GTO running in either S/S or GT with the 350, 200 HP engine that it came with. That would be me. My combination has been rated at 250 HP in the GTO for decades. This past season I hurt the combination while running in GT/QA at four different races. As a result, I was awarded 6 HP for my efforts. However, there were no triggers in S/S with my combination. So, it remains at 250 HP in Super/Stock. The only Pontiac Ventura II in 1974 with the ram air 350 at 200 HP was the GTO, not any other variant. For the record, the 1974 Ventura II with a flat hood(non ram-air) was only available with a two barrel and was factory rated at 170 HP. Larry Maxwell is running the GTO 350, 200 HP motor in his Firebird. We are the only two racers in the entire planet that run this motor, at the present time. 2020 will be the 26th year that I've run my 1974 GTO. Thirteen years in Stock Eliminator and now thirteen in Super/Stock.

[BRINK]

To clear up my last post, Larry and I are the only two racers in S/S running that motor. There are several other racers running the 1974 GTO in Stock Eliminator. But only two in Super/Stock.

[oldskool]

Here's round 1 of class elims, in SS, at the 2015 US Nats. Bill Rink won his SS/LA class. Robert Cruzen won his GT/AA class. Mike Morgan was RU in his SS/MA class.