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Old 01-03-2008, 09:02 AM   #21
Dick Butler
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Thumbs up Re: The death of bracket racing........

Louis, Thanks for your comments. Now people have to realize that there is life after Bracket racing for them . Just think what fun it can be to run in front of a crowd. get mini rewards mentally for gaining on your competition week after week by just tuning your car adjusting something.
Small gains can be their own reward. I had a GT/AA Camaro which started out running 10 sec area. Every week we ran I adjusted one thing at least. I used other cars as a gauge. In my case my daughters car. She gained .02 by weather I gained .05 meant a reward. I had learned something. I had accomplished something. When I sold the car it was capable of 9.42 143.50 at INDY. I have a nice collection of class trophies I EARNED by beating the "best" in the country at the same track. Great Rewards.... Now if we can reduce all Class racing to 5 classes of Heads up like your track imagine using the small rewards of gaining on the top dogs each week and the fun of running with SPECTATORS to appreciate your work.... Thanks Dick Butler
Come watch TOP/STK or TOP/SS at our meets. IT is a start in that direction...The other racers come up to watch "Time trials" never mind the actual racing. That confirms your thoughts too.
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:54 PM   #22
jrace
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Unhappy Re: The death of bracket racing........

Reasons for the death of bracket racing:


#1 Electronics
#2 Buy backs
#3 Big dollar races

And the main reason: THE ECONOMY
Drag racing is soley "disposible" income. The adverage family does not have that kind of disposible inccome.
Yes there are many "regular" people racing locally, but most are on the edge financially. They race instead of paying bills, it's like an addiction to some.
I figure that 85% of the people racing can't afford it, the other 15% are millionare's (ie. the Butler types). The millionare's are out of touch with reality, and for the most part the struggling economy doesn't affect them much.
What I see locally is the car count may look the same, but there is a shift from real race cars to street cars.
With $3.75 per gallon gas being said to happen by spring on the news, we'll see how that affects the "state" of the sport.
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:27 AM   #23
Dick Butler
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Default Re: The death of bracket racing........

Jrace,
It is common to see people post without their real name. Many have nothing constructive to add to the discussion and just want to see their Fake name in print. You were successful in doing that much. The other thing you do is try to create an "us versus them" attitude. Most will laugh at that. I do....
Drag Racing has been a major part of my life entertainment and challenges. I agree if you cannot afford to race, dont miss your payments. There is no money to be won, unless you excell in class or win elim or Bracket meet. Probably less than 5% of racers win money.
In class racing as it started it was important to sponsors, racers and spectators. Thats what created the prize money. In bracket racing only the guy driving is interested in the race, Thus no money. If you help recreate the interest of those who dont actually have money or skill to race a car, there can be a return of money for the racer. Nascar isnt for ALL people who want to drive, its for those who can afford it and the rest PAY to see it and the sponsors PAY to be seen. None of the cars has a box or breakout.
NHRA needs to recognize the difference between the participant racing of Bracket racing and the real need for Spectator and Sponsor attraction of Class Racing and "work" that difference for the good of real Class racers in S and SS so it can become important again. Not everyone will be able to participate but everyone can appreciate it and race at their level they afford.
Thanks....
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:24 PM   #24
JRyan
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Default Re: The death of bracket racing........

Dick,
Parts of your statement I believe to be correct. A person should try to push themselves to get small rewards in this game. You also should do only what you can afford to, and most don't win any money.
All of this is very correct.
However, they say history has a way of repeating itself. Remember back in the seventies when they ran off the records in class racing? What happened? Car counts dwindled and class racing was at a place where changes had to be made to survive. Top S/SS, Jr/Stk classes like these are great for special races. Like add in's to National Opens or even Divisionals. If our Boss stocker would fit in a class and be competitive we'd probably run it for fun. But if you try to make it the sole way to participate it will eventually suffer. Look at IHRA Top/Stock. It started out great then it turned into a keep up with the Jones' whoever had the most money best equipment won. That's great if you have the means to do it. Most people don't.
You seem to think it should be a special priviledge to run class. My family doesn't have the means to keep up with you or most others. Does this mean we should not be allowed to class race. Our Superstocker is plenty fast as a matter of fact it made the fastest under the index run in Superstock this year. So, for a little while we'd be more then competitive on a run off the record or index type approach.
You compare us to Nascar. Where, "it isn't for everyone that wants to drive." You're right it's not. But, they do have regional and local series to work you're way up the ranks. Is that not what bracket racing and stock, superstock racing is. Places for people race at the means they can afford. There are approx. 1200 Superstock cars in the country should 1000 of these cars have to find a different place to race because the other 200 think things should change. I love class and heads up racing and I'm for mild class consolidation. But if you try to limit S/SS to just a handful of classes it will disappear.
Bracket racing as a part of class racing is a necessity to survival. Sure more heads up races will keep more people in the stands for a while but eventually the races will be dominated by a small few. Then where will the sponsors and spectators be.

Rick Ryan
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: The death of bracket racing........

Sorry Double Post.

Last edited by JRyan; 01-06-2008 at 11:31 PM. Reason: Doudle Post
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:40 AM   #26
Dick Butler
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Thumbs up Re: The death of bracket racing........

Rick, One of the hardest things to get across is that in no way do I believe Heads up racing in Sportsman level is the "Only kind of racing" I agree the index system helped save S and SS and keep it locally interesting. BUT..... the pendulum has been allowed to swing too far away from the part which can be used for keeping our "Show Value". We need dial in for eliminator. NOT FOR EVERY MEET without some "SHOW VALUE"
I could not predict how many classes "should be" in S and SS. There are just way too many. Its a statistical thing. 1000 cars nation wide divided into 200 classes = 5 per class nationwide. Hold an event and 2 might show(except indy). Say there were 40 classes and divide the same number of cars makes 50 cars per class nation wide. You could hear about competitors, gauge your accomplishments, Have class racing at National events which are more fun and challenge to EARN a Wally. Maybe a few Sponsors might even decide to reinvest in class money. Afterall they are now only posting for 40 classes not 200 right?
(Disclaimer: numbers are used for example)
Money: NHRA has inadvertently created enough classes to get people to stretch their budget past what it might take to race at an heads up only method. Some of this is our own fault. Some "wish " they could run Pro Stock and recognize the budget and quickly dont try it. Some think that if they only "need" to dial in they can afford the NHRA points meets and Nationals. These latter people will still be able to race but maybe they wont be as competitive at Class events but will still have the Points meets and Open events where they can enjoy the "driving challenge" of the dial in racing.
Those who think someone will pay them to enjoy their racing without a profit for the track from food, spectators or racer numbers are mistaken. If we recognise how the bigger picture can be helped there will be no need to sacrifice our racing locally or Nationally and it is my opinion we will HELP make it more fun and profitable for all.
Above all I feel both methods of racing need to exist but the balance is not currently there. By having opportunities to create a show again(TOP/SS, TOP/STK, Jr. Stk .....) choices can be made of which type of racing indiividuals prefer and be used to add spectator appeal.By Reduction of classes, competition can return to National events where "class" is run. This will also aid in making the AHFS more effective and everyone wins....
Thanks Rick
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:57 AM   #27
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Default Re: The death of bracket racing........

Dick: the biggest issue I see with todays SS racing is the fact tht unless you have a high $$$ converted FWD car you get crap.. I have a Mustang that we run S/ST with car was intended to run SS but I cant use the tubular front end in SS, kida suks because IF I had built a Probe or any other FWD conversion car, I could have the best, lightest strut setup money could buy.. thus the rules are what is making it hard on some of us who want to run class, but simply cannot afford to build 80k racecars...

I agree you should only race within your means... I am most likely one of the few in our area who still build my own cars, engines and whatever else I can do to save a few $$$ so I can race a beter piece..

I would love to see NHRA/IHRA.. anyone come out with a heads up type class like class racing used to be in the mid-late 80's.. very strict rules, no one car clearly had an advantage... almost like the NMRA/NMCA have done with some of thier classes.. all heads up.. the one who can figure out the setup wins..

I used to race with a guy from Jersey, ran a SS/FM camaro, had more fun running that car, working on it almost every week to try to find a .002 somewhere.. went to the nationals he won class several others there. that was fun.. I ran Comp. for a brief time A/EA.. till they allowed the use of the Pontiac/Buick aluminum heads.. I could only muster a .2 under with a great set of steel heads, but everyone was about the same.. then all of a sudden the aluminum heads were .8 faster then the index got lowered..

I know we have to evolve as racers with todays technology.. but it seems to me that the powers to be dont allways allow the technology where it is needed.. ie. tubular front suspensions.. alot stronger, and safer than OEM parts..you would then have alot more crossover racers..
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:08 AM   #28
Dick Butler
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Default Re: The death of bracket racing........

Freddie, Problem is within the Gt versus SS rules. In order to "allow" FWD cars "allowances" were made.
It parallels you wish for one car, one set of rules being the challenge. Too many "allowances" here or there makes it LOOK lobsided. I agree if every class evolved together it would be better BUT then we are getting away from the real SS idea of original chassis again.....
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:31 AM   #29
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Default Re: The death of bracket racing........

I couldnt agree more..

But if your going to allow it on one side then it should be allowed on the other as well..

Truth being told.. we got away from the original idea of S/SS racing a long time ago.. cars are no longer measured on haow hard a person works to achieve anything.. instead it has become who can afford to out perform the guy on top this week.. I for one dont want any part of a financial Pi$$ing match..


Back in the late 80's I went to a few brcket races.. more for test time on my setup than anything else.. as the new rules and $$$ got out of hand for me.. we became participants at the bracket races instead of just testing..

I personally dont cre for the super classes either, but until I either hit the lottery, or some rules drasticly change.. that is where I can race my two cars comfortably.. along with brackets..
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:11 AM   #30
Dick Butler
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Default Re: The death of bracket racing........

Freddie,
Good Luck at the track.... Thanks for the discussions.....Dick
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