Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Look at the next 2 columns after Flat w/notches. Dome/Dish Vol and Dome/Dish Hgt where it says No Spec.


Stan

So ???

Are you saying that NHRA is saying the 428 pistons have a dish or don't have a dish, or that they don't know whether they have a dish or a dome, or just what they have ?

All I'm saying is that those engine specs do NOT describe the 428 pistons as having a dish. Just describes them as "Flat w/notches".

So, I'd guess that if a tech guy looked at the top of a piston in somebody's 428 powered Stocker & the piston tops looked just like the 400 Pontiac piston tops, unless they were very familiar with old Pontiac engines, they would OK the pistons, if all they did was just look at the top. UNLESS they had access to more detailed & accurate 428 piston info than what I see that is presented on the Class Racer Info site.

I have run across some info there, that had not been updated to the very latest NHRA info. But, since I figure nobody has planned a 428 Stocker, in a long time, I doubt NHRA has any 428 piston info that is not on the Class Racer Info site.

For me, the bottom line in all this is that the NHRA engine specs(as shown on the Class Racer Info site) do NOT say that 428 pistons must have a dish. And, they do not list any legal replacement pistons. And that's all I'm gonna say about it.

[oldskool]

All the pics I posted of '68's were obviously of Birds. But, there have certainly been some '68 Goat Stockers, thru the years.

The 2 most recent I know of belonged to Adam Strang & Tim Gillespie. Both ran strong. Tim's made the field at Indy more than once. Adam & Tim have both made the field at Indy with their '68 Birds.

[oldskool]

'69 brought more changes.

(1) Ram Air IV engine. Round port heads, the 041 cam, 1.65 rockers, alum intake, forged pistons. But had cast rods.

(2) 1st year of the "The Judge".

(3) 1st year of the Trans Am.

It would also be the last year of the 428 & the last year of the 1st gen Birds.

Here are 9 '69 Bird pics, some from long ago, some more recent, the last one from the last few weeks.

Pic #4 is Phil Monteith's RAIV car, which he bought new. At least that's what I've read.

[oldskool]

The '69 GTO is my favorite, probably because it was the 1st
new car I bought, & my 1st drag car. Turned out to be the ONLY new car I ever bought.

I even liked the Judge, except for the orange color, which I think they called Carousel Red. Black was my favorite Judge color.

Back in the old days, there were some '69 GTO winners & record holders, but not in the modern era. I think the NHRA hp factors were just too high. They're much better now. But the GTO bodies are worth too much for most guys to use for racing. Only recently active '69 I'm aware of belongs to Art Peterson, in CA. He's had it for a long time.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

So ???

Are you saying that NHRA is saying the 428 pistons have a dish or don't have a dish, or that they don't know whether they have a dish or a dome, or just what they have ?

All I'm saying is that those engine specs do NOT describe the 428 pistons as having a dish. Just describes them as "Flat w/notches".

So, I'd guess that if a tech guy looked at the top of a piston in somebody's 428 powered Stocker & the piston tops looked just like the 400 Pontiac piston tops, unless they were very familiar with old Pontiac engines, they would OK the pistons, if all they did was just look at the top. UNLESS they had access to more detailed & accurate 428 piston info than what I see that is presented on the Class Racer Info site.

I have run across some info there, that had not been updated to the very latest NHRA info. But, since I figure nobody has planned a 428 Stocker, in a long time, I doubt NHRA has any 428 piston info that is not on the Class Racer Info site.

For me, the bottom line in all this is that the NHRA engine specs(as shown on the Class Racer Info site) do NOT say that 428 pistons must have a dish. And, they do not list any legal replacement pistons. And that's all I'm gonna say about it.

I have no idea what specs NHRA has for those pistons. Dwight / Class Racer Info does a great job in providing information. But it is not perfect.



Stan

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I have no idea what specs NHRA has for those pistons. Dwight / Class Racer Info does a great job in providing information. But it is not perfect.



Stan

Well, thankfully, here is finally something that you & I can agree on.

[oldskool]

The 1970 model year brought about more changes at Pontiac. I consider 2 of those changes, major.

(1) First year of the 2nd gen Birds.

(2) First year of the 455.

The new Birds had a completely different look. The T/A had a shaker hood, fender vents, wheel flairs, plus front & rear spoilers.

The Formula Birds had a special hood which had lots of fiberglass in it. Had 2 long scoops. These hoods were used thru at least '75, & maybe some in '76. There have been LOTS of these hoods seen on Bird Stock/SS cars, thru the years. Still in use on several active cars.

'70 was the only year for a high compression 455. I find it interesting that the 455 was not offered in a '70 Bird, but was, in Goats & big cars. I figure there were quite a few '70 455 powered GTO drag cars, thru the years. But, I can only think of one '70 GTO Stocker in recent years, which I'll cover in the next post.

A RAIV engine was still an option, including in a Bird. I've read that, for the Birds, only the T/A could come with the RAIV. BUT, as we know, Scott Burton was allowed to ran a RAIV equipped '70 Formy, which was the quickest Pontiac Stocker ever. Has not been one quicker, as of today. It has been posted that it ran in the high 9's in legal Stock trim.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Some '70 Birds could come with a 12-bolt Chevy rear. I only ran across one of these, which we used in a bracket car. Some lower power Birds could come with a Powerglide trans, which had a multi-pattern case. I think it was available for only 2 years.

Once again, there were probably lots of private & dealer sponsored '70 Bird drag cars, back in their early days.

Another interesting thing I've noticed is that because the early 2nd gen Birds are so similar, only very minor changes must be made, in order to change the year model being claimed. I could site several racers who did this.

These pics include both Formy & T/A models. If they ran in B or C Stock, they had to be '70 models, since only '70 models had enuff hp factor to run those classes. For those that ran lower classes, it is sometimes hard to tell exactly what year model they were claiming.

I found a pic of a Knafel '70 model Formy. Not sure what class it was running. Also found a pic, which I did not post, of a really strange lookin Modified Production Knafel Formy. Not even sure the pic shows the car as it actually was.

Not sure of the year model of the T/A in pic #5. But, I know that there were '70 models that were white, with blue stripes. But it could have been running as a '71-'73. Can't tell what grills it had. Looks to have been running E or F class.

The last 4 pics are of the quickest Pontiac Stocker, ever, when it was owned by Scott Burton.

For any reading this who don't really know what it takes to make some of today's Stockers go 2 seconds quicker than the same combo did, back in the '70's, you may enjoy this article. When I 1st read it, several years ago, I learned several things I didn't know. It answered some questions I had, such as: How can a Pontiac Stocker turn low 10's ? How can a Pontiac Stocker engine turn 8000 rpm ? How can today's Stockers go quicker than the same combos did, in Super Stock form, back in the '70's ?

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...tiac-firebird/

[oldskool]

The 1st '70 GTO Stocker I remember is Ray Stover's "Kathy's Clown".

A few years back, I began checkin out all the old Knafel Pontiac drag cars. Ran across their '70 GTO. Seems that it did real good & set lots of records. But, it apparently did not run NHRA. Must have been AHRA, or IHRA, since their was stuff wrote on the windows I'm not familiar with.

Their online site shows pics of the engine, with a Thermoquad carb on it. There is quite a bit of info about the car, as well as pics of it.

Todd Kuhn has been the main driver of the only '70 GTO Stocker that I'm aware of, that has been active in recent years. It's 455 powered. That's the '70 hi compression D-port 455HO, with #64 heads.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Bill Eadelis has a nice '70 RAIV GTO Super Stocker.

[oldskool]

The main change in '71, that affected Pontiac drag racing, was the arrival of the round port 455HO engine. This prompted lots of private & dealer sponsored racers to buy a 455HO Pontiac & put it on the track.

Also, rather than buying either a Bird or GTO, racers could get the 455HO engine in a T-37, which many did. The 1st one I remember was raced by Rock Running, who named it the "Super Sleeper". IIRC, I've read that Ken Shawver & Danny Ashley were 2 of the later owners, before current owner Don Turk got it.

1st '71 GTO Stocker I remember was driven by Mick Leiferman. He's known for being Stock RU @ Indy 3 years in a row.

Some racers begin running a '71 Bird, then for some reason they'd switch it over to a '72 model. Main cosmetic differences I'm aware of are that the '71 non-T/A Birds had a rectangular fender vent on the front fenders, behind the wheel wells, and the '72's had honeycomb pattern grills, rather than the small squares pattern of the '70-'71 models.

I think '71 is the year the Birds began using the corporate 8.5" rear ends. That don't mean much now, since a 12-bolt can be used. But, it was probably welcomed by the early races, who had to run the type that came in the car.

I've read that Gary Moore's 2nd gen was a '71. He won class with it at a national event, in Stock.

[stage1scott]

seems this guy has a handle on how to make the B part of BOP run hard!