1967 Pontiac Firebird - Page 3

DeuceCoupe · 09-19-2021, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

Continuing with the subject of the thread, I have pics of some '67 birds from back in the old days.

The 1st 5 are of Stockers. #5 is OHC Six powered.

Roy Gay, of Gay Pontiac in Southeast TX, drove a '67 Bird in Super Stock. Don't have any record of times turned or race results.

Another '67 was driven by Tony Knieper. Looks like it may have been sponsored by Gratiot Auto Supply & Stan Long Pontiac. Pic caption says the car held a nat record.

Bottom Center:
Knieper May 1968 SS/FA=9.50 class record, 12.16 at 113.92mph
Pretty sure thats a RamAir at 335hp or 340hp factored.
I'm still guessing on some of the factoring.
I know at some point NHRA started to factor the Firebird engines same as the GTO, figuring that:
1. Everybody had figured out how to get the Qjet to fully open and
2. Everybody ran headers so the exhaust manifold differences were nil.
So at some point, late 1968 or 1969, that 1967 Ram Air was factored to 360hp which bumped it up a class hotter.

In the current class guide, the manual & auto cars are listed at the same weight. But for some reason, in my own edits for "back in the day" I'm adding 54 lb for the T400 trans, as NHRA sometimes does, & sometimes doesnt. Not sure which is right.

BTW - is there a way to tell a RamAir car from a Non-RamAir car?
Since they share the same hood it often isn't clear from the pictures.

Stan Weiss · 09-19-2021, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

Probably nobody that cares, but there is some slight misinformation this thread.

First thing I'll say is that I've never heard of anybody running the 326 in a competitive Stocker. The holes are just too small.

But, can anybody here site any competitive 326 powered Stockers ?

The Pontiac 2-speed auto was referred to as a "power-glide". It's my understanding that all the '64-'69 Pontiac A & F-body 2-speed autos were not Chevy Powerglides, but were what some call a "Super Turbine 300". I think these were also used in some Buicks & Olds too. IIRC, they could use a TH350/TH400 type converter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Turbine_300

BUT, after '69, SOME Pontiacs did come with a PG trans. I think some of 'em came with a dual pattern case & some came with that same case, but only the BOP holes were drilled.

I only bought one of the dual pattern PG's. Actually bought the whole car(what was left of it) from a U-Pull-It yard. I think it was a '71 Bird. May have been a '70. When I unbolted it from the 350 engine, the bell housing part fell into several pieces.

Couldn't tell it was cracked, because of all the caked on dirt. I only saw one other, which was in a Lemans. I wanna say that they only came in Pontiacs in '70 & '71, but could be wrong.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293982744520

It has to be more than just the small hole (3.718" bore) that is the problem with the 326 ci Pontiac. People build the 305 ci SBC 3.736" bore and run well.

Stan

oldskool · 09-19-2021, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

It has to be more than just the small hole (3.718" bore) that is the problem with the 326 ci Pontiac. People build the 305 ci SBC 3.736" bore and run well.

Stan

I'll take a stab at this.

Now this is my opinion of why nobody has/would build a 326 powered Stocker.

(1) The 326HO carb is a an AFB. It seems that most all the popular Pontiac combos are Q-jet equipped. It has been proven that legal 750 Q-jets will feed even low 9 sec SS engines, & 10 sec Stocker engines. Therefore, a Q-jet would not be a choke point for a 326 engine.

(2) The NHRA hp factor of 285 is just too high to make the 326HO competitive. There are later Q-jet equipped 400 cube engines that have a lower hp factor. The '68 Q-jet equipped 350HO has an hp factor of only 305. That would make it much more competitive than a 326 @ 285hp. Don't know how low the 326 engine hp factor would have to be in order for it to be competitive. But obviously, if you get the hp factor low enuff, you can make most any combo competitive. There have several very competitive 4-cyl cars.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

(3) There are no legal replacement 326 pistons listed. So, anyone who wanted to build a 326 Stocker would have to get a piston made & NHRA approved. Adam Strang did this for the '68 Pontiac 350.

(4) Not sure, but I assume that the auto trans equipped 326 cars came with the 2-speed. I think you can now run a 3-speed. But, this was probably a major consideration, back when you had to run what it came with. I'm quite sure that's why there were VERY few '64-'66 GTO Stockers which ran an auto trans.

(5) Bottom line is that there are just too many other Pontiac combos that are much better choices, for a variety of reasons. Therefore, I don't expect there will ever be a 326 Stocker built.

"...People build the 305 ci SBC 3.736" bore and run well."

As to that statement: The '80 Bird I bought in recent years had a Q-jet equipped 305 in it. So, just out of curiosity, I just looked up the 305 powered '80 Pontiacs.

For all Pontiac models except the Birds, the hp factor is 235. That's 50 hp LESS than the 326 Pontiac engine, plus it has a Q-jet. Hey, at 235hp, the 326 MIGHT be competitive. Don't know.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

DeuceCoupe · 09-19-2021, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

Continuing with the subject of the thread, I have pics of some '67 birds from back in the old days.

The 1st 5 are of Stockers. #5 is OHC Six powered.

Roy Gay, of Gay Pontiac in Southeast TX, drove a '67 Bird in Super Stock. Don't have any record of times turned or race results.

Another '67 was driven by Tony Knieper. Looks like it may have been sponsored by Gratiot Auto Supply & Stan Long Pontiac. Pic caption says the car held a nat record.

Top row left side, the 1015 car my guess for C/SA is 1968 where C/SA=9.00, and the RamAir was already factored to the GTO's 360hp. Adding 56 lb for the T400 trans I get W/P=9.01, a perfect fit to class.

Otherwise, factoring the RamAir engine to 340hp and NOT adding the 56 lb for the T400 trans gives W/P=9.38.

Either way, 1968 seems to be the only year that would fit, or 1973 & newer but the picture just looks "old".

Since today's NHRA class guide does NOT add the 56 lb for the T400 in the Firebird, maybe it was never added. Manufacturers were inconsistent about this - sometimes they add 50 lb or so for an auto trans, sometimes they dont. That's in Today's NHRA Excel files. I dont have the old class guides so guessing a little.

Stan Weiss · 09-20-2021, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

I'll take a stab at this.

Now this is my opinion of why nobody has/would build a 326 powered Stocker.

(1) The 326HO carb is a an AFB. It seems that most all the popular Pontiac combos are Q-jet equipped. It has been proven that legal 750 Q-jets will feed even low 9 sec SS engines, & 10 sec Stocker engines. Therefore, a Q-jet would not be a choke point for a 326 engine.

(2) The NHRA hp factor of 285 is just too high to make the 326HO competitive. There are later Q-jet equipped 400 cube engines that have a lower hp factor. The '68 Q-jet equipped 350HO has an hp factor of only 305. That would make it much more competitive than a 326 @ 285hp. Don't know how low the 326 engine hp factor would have to be in order for it to be competitive. But obviously, if you get the hp factor low enuff, you can make most any combo competitive. There have several very competitive 4-cyl cars.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

(3) There are no legal replacement 326 pistons listed. So, anyone who wanted to build a 326 Stocker would have to get a piston made & NHRA approved. Adam Strang did this for the '68 Pontiac 350.

(4) Not sure, but I assume that the auto trans equipped 326 cars came with the 2-speed. I think you can now run a 3-speed. But, this was probably a major consideration, back when you had to run what it came with. I'm quite sure that's why there were VERY few '64-'66 GTO Stockers which ran an auto trans.

(5) Bottom line is that there are just too many other Pontiac combos that are much better choices, for a variety of reasons. Therefore, I don't expect there will ever be a 326 Stocker built.

"...People build the 305 ci SBC 3.736" bore and run well."

As to that statement: The '80 Bird I bought in recent years had a Q-jet equipped 305 in it. So, just out of curiosity, I just looked up the 305 powered '80 Pontiacs.

For all Pontiac models except the Birds, the hp factor is 235. That's 50 hp LESS than the 326 Pontiac engine, plus it has a Q-jet. Hey, at 235hp, the 326 MIGHT be competitive. Don't know.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

Interesting. While it may have an AFB carb and not a Q-Jet. The Throttle and Venturi sizes listed on Class Racer Info for the '67 285 HP 326 are the same sizes as was used for the '66 335 HP 389 engine.

Stan

oldskool · 09-20-2021, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Interesting. While it may have an AFB carb and not a Q-Jet. The Throttle and Venturi sizes listed on Class Racer Info for the '67 285 HP 326 are the same sizes as was used for the '66 335 HP 389 engine.

Stan

Yeah, I suspect that lots of Pontiacs used that same size AFB.

Same with the Q-jet. Most of the Pontiac engines used the same size Q-jet, during the same model year. There were exceptions, such as the SD455 Q-jets. Also the rare 455HO Q-jets that didn't have the outer booster rings.

Hey, some of the OHC Six engines had a Q-jet.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...6&MAKE=Pontiac

Some 301's came with an 800cfm Q-jet.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

I suppose the main thing is that Q-jet equipped Pontiac Stockers are not power limited by the carb, since the Q-jets can feed low 9-sec SS Pontiacs. I suppose the quickest Pontiac powered SS pass may have been the 8.90, made by the GT/AA 428 powered Cobalt, raced by Robert Cruzen. That Q-jet had to be the 750cfm size. I suppose some refer to that size as the "small" Q-jet. Don't know.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop