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Old 09-18-2021, 12:16 PM   #21
oldskool
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

" 1968 – Battle of the sandbaggers! "

I have to laugh at this headline !

Not much has changed. For the quick cars, if they ran all-out, every pass, their combo would soon have such a huge hp factor that it would not be competitive, in any heads-up run.

Back then, the only difference was that they were running against their class record, rather than the class index.

So, as much as Stock/SS racers hate to hear it, for legal cars, most Stock/SS racing uses bracket racing rules. The same-class heads-up runs are the exception. Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know the average percentage of total elimination runs which are heads-up, for class racers that run a full schedule.

Obviously, anyone in a stick class won't often have a heads-up. But, there are some of the quicker auto trans classes that have several entries, at some big races. I've read posts by LOTS of racers saying that the ONLY reason they run class instead of bracket is for the rare heads-up runs. Without those runs, many say they'd either go bracket racing or quit racing.

Then I suppose there are a few who race Stock, with a slow car that will barely run it's index, just because they have a good chance to beat any of the quick high dollar cars, at most any race.

So, just from my observation, the Stock racers are a very diverse group, having members with differing opinions & goals. Many are content with old-school carb equipped cars. But some insist on goin quick, with the latest, greatest FS cars. Then there are some who are always lookin the softest combo they can find, which they can live with.

Last edited by oldskool; 09-18-2021 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 09-18-2021, 01:29 PM   #22
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

(More comments!)

Continuing to race results:
Winter:
IIRC the 60 Pontiac G/SA Douglas & Forys was a 389/318-6v wagon, fits class almost exactly. Those tripower Pontiacs weren't all GTOs!

I have down that Cossey won A/S but will check again. Yup, my sheet is clearly showing Cossey, 12.35 at 113.92. OK I read the notes down below. Great story!

SPRING
IIRC the 62 421 SuperDuty was “rated” at 405hp. (As If). And never factored., as with so many 50s & early 60s engines.

INDY
Amazingly, the 396/375hp L78 was still running unfactored at 375hp that year. Near as I can Gonkulate, the L78 left the factory making about 415 gross hp in the Camaro/Chevelle, vs maybe 435hp in the Vette/Impala when it first came out in 1965 “rated” at 425hp. I think it was a little unfair of NHRA to factor the L78 up to 425hp in 1968 but I bet that 1965 big-car rating with the better exhaust iron was their basis.

NOTES:
Ed Terry’s car in the picture is a little dark but does look like a 66 from the trim – the text says both 66 and 67. Maybe somebody knows for sure. The 66 & 67 Fairlanes were twins except for trim, grille, taillights, etc.

Jenkins – SS/C win should be Spring not Winter?

Garey should be a 66 Olds W30, in SS/E=9.50 (Kempton won SS/EA). The 66 or 67 W30 would also run in B/S=9.50. However, per (Boyce, pg47) NHRA wouldn’t let the 66 W30 run in stock class after learning that so few were made (54 total) and all went to racers, none sold to normal people. Ok, well, that didn’t come out right. I’m not sure just when the 66 W30 got banished from stock class though since it’s still listed as a record holder in Sept 1967 B/S=9.50 class. Maybe NHRA let the record stand but the 66 W30 could only run in SS/E=9.50 after that.

BTW, curious why you’d say that “on paper” the 66 W30 would take a back seat to the 67 GTX? Both cars are near identical Lb/HP, the 66 W30 at W/P=9.59 and the 67 GTX at W/P=9.61, plus the W30 had cold air (OAI). I’d say on paper, I’d give the win to the W30. Of course, as time went by, the 440 got a lot more SuperStock parts (intakes & cams) so the W30 SuperStock wins became more rare.

Yes, as already noted, should say the 67 GTO came with a new 400, not 66 GTO. Also same comment, the GTO ran in SS/E=9.50 or B/S=9.50, not E/S.

“The 66 GTO came with a new 400cui motor and like the Olds, appeared outgunned in SS /E or E/Stock. Pontiac had less success in class or eliminations…”

I had GUESSED that Sargi won B/SA=9.50 with a 67 GTO but the sheet just says “Pontiac”, not very informative. The only other likely winner would be a 61 SuperDuty 389/368hp. Does anybody know?

Also, again I’m not sure why the 67 RamAir1 would look outclassed – when I Gonkulate the B/SA=9.50 class for 1967, the RamAir1 comes out very competitive with the other contenders – W30, 427 LTD, Fury 383/343, a super competitive class. Seems Wt/HP=9.50 was sort of the “Muscle Car” class back then.

“however a 58 , a 60 and a 62 model still featured in Stock class finals.”

Do you know what cars/classes those 58, 60, 62 Pontiacs won? I’m still guessing parts of 67 Winter because the sheets don’t give the car year!

NOTES: FORD:
The 66-67 Fairlanes were doggone near identical cars in weight – only taillights, headlights, side trim differed.
Classes were determined by the engine and the cold air hood.
SS/B=7.00 ran the cold air 427/425-8v engine, factored to about 460-465hp by NHRA.
SS/C=7.70 ran the cold air 427/410-4v engine, factored to about 435hp by NHRA. That combo disappeared for 1968 – none were built that way anyway.

That’s my CURRENT understanding of the Fairlane 427 saga.

MOPAR:
I didn’t know AA/S=7.00 class returned for 1967! What were the rules? Could you still run any intake, any cam as in 1965-66? I don’t see AA/S listed in any of the win or record sheets for 1967?


All in all a great read, thanks very much for writing this stuff up. I hope some of the folks who were there read it & we can get the history down. It will never be repeated!
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Old 09-18-2021, 01:34 PM   #23
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Here is what I have for 1967 Winternationals.
As you can see there are guesses (shaded in pink)
For example in F/SA, the win sheet just says "Pontiac" so I guessed 3 possible combos. Anybody know?
Comments, corrections welcome!
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Old 09-19-2021, 03:31 AM   #24
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe View Post
(More comments!)

Continuing to race results:
Winter:
IIRC the 60 Pontiac G/SA Douglas & Forys was a 389/318-6v wagon, fits class almost exactly. Those tripower Pontiacs weren't all GTOs!

I have down that Cossey won A/S but will check again. Yup, my sheet is clearly showing Cossey, 12.35 at 113.92. OK I read the notes down below. Great story!

SPRING
IIRC the 62 421 SuperDuty was “rated” at 405hp. (As If). And never factored., as with so many 50s & early 60s engines.

INDY
Amazingly, the 396/375hp L78 was still running unfactored at 375hp that year. Near as I can Gonkulate, the L78 left the factory making about 415 gross hp in the Camaro/Chevelle, vs maybe 435hp in the Vette/Impala when it first came out in 1965 “rated” at 425hp. I think it was a little unfair of NHRA to factor the L78 up to 425hp in 1968 but I bet that 1965 big-car rating with the better exhaust iron was their basis.

NOTES:
Ed Terry’s car in the picture is a little dark but does look like a 66 from the trim – the text says both 66 and 67. Maybe somebody knows for sure. The 66 & 67 Fairlanes were twins except for trim, grille, taillights, etc.

Jenkins – SS/C win should be Spring not Winter?

Garey should be a 66 Olds W30, in SS/E=9.50 (Kempton won SS/EA). The 66 or 67 W30 would also run in B/S=9.50. However, per (Boyce, pg47) NHRA wouldn’t let the 66 W30 run in stock class after learning that so few were made (54 total) and all went to racers, none sold to normal people. Ok, well, that didn’t come out right. I’m not sure just when the 66 W30 got banished from stock class though since it’s still listed as a record holder in Sept 1967 B/S=9.50 class. Maybe NHRA let the record stand but the 66 W30 could only run in SS/E=9.50 after that.

BTW, curious why you’d say that “on paper” the 66 W30 would take a back seat to the 67 GTX? Both cars are near identical Lb/HP, the 66 W30 at W/P=9.59 and the 67 GTX at W/P=9.61, plus the W30 had cold air (OAI). I’d say on paper, I’d give the win to the W30. Of course, as time went by, the 440 got a lot more SuperStock parts (intakes & cams) so the W30 SuperStock wins became more rare.

Yes, as already noted, should say the 67 GTO came with a new 400, not 66 GTO. Also same comment, the GTO ran in SS/E=9.50 or B/S=9.50, not E/S.

“The 66 GTO came with a new 400cui motor and like the Olds, appeared outgunned in SS /E or E/Stock. Pontiac had less success in class or eliminations…”

I had GUESSED that Sargi won B/SA=9.50 with a 67 GTO but the sheet just says “Pontiac”, not very informative. The only other likely winner would be a 61 SuperDuty 389/368hp. Does anybody know?

Also, again I’m not sure why the 67 RamAir1 would look outclassed – when I Gonkulate the B/SA=9.50 class for 1967, the RamAir1 comes out very competitive with the other contenders – W30, 427 LTD, Fury 383/343, a super competitive class. Seems Wt/HP=9.50 was sort of the “Muscle Car” class back then.

“however a 58 , a 60 and a 62 model still featured in Stock class finals.”

Do you know what cars/classes those 58, 60, 62 Pontiacs won? I’m still guessing parts of 67 Winter because the sheets don’t give the car year!

NOTES: FORD:
The 66-67 Fairlanes were doggone near identical cars in weight – only taillights, headlights, side trim differed.
Classes were determined by the engine and the cold air hood.
SS/B=7.00 ran the cold air 427/425-8v engine, factored to about 460-465hp by NHRA.
SS/C=7.70 ran the cold air 427/410-4v engine, factored to about 435hp by NHRA. That combo disappeared for 1968 – none were built that way anyway.

That’s my CURRENT understanding of the Fairlane 427 saga.

MOPAR:
I didn’t know AA/S=7.00 class returned for 1967! What were the rules? Could you still run any intake, any cam as in 1965-66? I don’t see AA/S listed in any of the win or record sheets for 1967?


All in all a great read, thanks very much for writing this stuff up. I hope some of the folks who were there read it & we can get the history down. It will never be repeated!
I’ll work through all your comments in the next few days...there’s a bit to address! 😆
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Old 09-19-2021, 04:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

IIRC the 60 Pontiac G/SA Douglas & Forys was a 389/318-6v wagon, fits class almost exactly. Those tripower Pontiacs weren't all GTOs! - CHANGED

I have down that Cossey won A/S but will check again. Yup, my sheet is clearly showing Cossey, 12.35 at 113.92. OK I read the notes down below. Great story! - A/S in 66, B/S in 67, A/S in 68

SPRING
IIRC the 62 421 SuperDuty was “rated” at 405hp. (As If). And never factored., as with so many 50s & early 60s engines. - CORRECT - 410hp were the 13.5:1 63s

INDY
Amazingly, the 396/375hp L78 was still running unfactored at 375hp that year. Near as I can Gonkulate, the L78 left the factory making about 415 gross hp in the Camaro/Chevelle, vs maybe 435hp in the Vette/Impala when it first came out in 1965 “rated” at 425hp. I think it was a little unfair of NHRA to factor the L78 up to 425hp in 1968 but I bet that 1965 big-car rating with the better exhaust iron was their basis.

NOTES:
Ed Terry’s car in the picture is a little dark but does look like a 66 from the trim – the text says both 66 and 67. Maybe somebody knows for sure. The 66 & 67 Fairlanes were twins except for trim, grille, taillights, etc.-

PAUL CEASRINE DEBATES THIS ON THE 1966 SuperStock Nationals thread. He claims the 67s were heavier. Thus the difference in class.

Jenkins – SS/C win should be Spring not Winter? No - According to Ed Miller, Jenkins fouled out 1st round in class run offs and sold his motor to Vasquez to complete the SS/C class.

Garey should be a 66 Olds W30, in SS/E=9.50- It is captioned in that class.


BTW, curious why you’d say that “on paper” the 66 W30 would take a back seat to the 67 GTX? Both cars are near identical Lb/HP, the 66 W30 at W/P=9.59 and the 67 GTX at W/P=9.61, plus the W30 had cold air (OAI). I’d say on paper, I’d give the win to the W30. Of course, as time went by, the 440 got a lot more SuperStock parts (intakes & cams) so the W30 SuperStock wins became more rare.- Street reputation. But I believe I was thinking about the hemi GTX in SS/D.

Yes, as already noted, should say the 67 GTO came with a new 400, not 66 GTO. Also same comment, the GTO ran in SS/E=9.50 or B/S=9.50, not E/S.- FIXED

“The 66 GTO came with a new 400cui motor and like the Olds, appeared outgunned in SS /E or E/Stock. Pontiac had less success in class or eliminations…”

I had GUESSED that Sargi won B/SA=9.50 with a 67 GTO but the sheet just says “Pontiac”, not very informative. The only other likely winner would be a 61 SuperDuty 389/368hp. Does anybody know? - UNKNOWN

Also, again I’m not sure why the 67 RamAir1 would look outclassed – when I Gonkulate the B/SA=9.50 class for 1967, the RamAir1 comes out very competitive with the other contenders – W30, 427 LTD, Fury 383/343, a super competitive class. Seems Wt/HP=9.50 was sort of the “Muscle Car” class back then. - Again thinking hemi GTX

“however a 58 , a 60 and a 62 model still featured in Stock class finals.”

Do you know what cars/classes those 58, 60, 62 Pontiacs won? I’m still guessing parts of 67 Winter because the sheets don’t give the car year!

58 Jay Hamilton, 60 Douglas & Forys, 62 Ray McClelland

NOTES: FORD:
The 66-67 Fairlanes were doggone near identical cars in weight – only taillights, headlights, side trim differed.
Classes were determined by the engine and the cold air hood.
SS/B=7.00 ran the cold air 427/425-8v engine, factored to about 460-465hp by NHRA.
SS/C=7.70 ran the cold air 427/410-4v engine, factored to about 435hp by NHRA. That combo disappeared for 1968 – none were built that way anyway.

That’s my CURRENT understanding of the Fairlane 427 saga.

See my earlier comment re-Paul Ceasrine’s discussion

MOPAR:
I didn’t know AA/S=7.00 class returned for 1967! What were the rules? Could you still run any intake, any cam as in 1965-66? I don’t see AA/S listed in any of the win or record sheets for 1967?

One of the source texts. I agree this is puzzling, as both source books claim the class was held open...but Ive found no records of winners in either 66 or 67.
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Old 09-19-2021, 04:21 AM   #26
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Re the Douglas Pontiac....318 or 348hp?

.I’m going to review 67 shortly...updated engine specs for the table.

Last edited by Rat Patrol; 09-19-2021 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 09-19-2021, 08:41 AM   #27
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Patrol View Post




NOTES:
Ed Terry’s car in the picture is a little dark but does look like a 66 from the trim – the text says both 66 and 67. Maybe somebody knows for sure. The 66 & 67 Fairlanes were twins except for trim, grille, taillights, etc.-

PAUL CEASRINE DEBATES THIS ON THE 1966 SuperStock Nationals thread. He claims the 67s were heavier. Thus the difference in class.



[/B]

Did you mean this thread?
"1967 Superstock Nationals"
https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...t=47314&page=3

Page 2:
(Paul)
I forgot to add in the Ford's.

* SS/B ..... Jerry Harvey ~ 1966 Fairlane 'Sedan' ~ 427/425 HP
* SS/B ..... John Downing ~ 1966 Fairlane 500 ~ 427/425 HP
* SS/B ..... Bill Ireland ~ 1966 Fairlane 500 ~ 427/425 HP
* SS/C ..... Harold Dutton ~ 1967 Fairlane 500 ~ 427/425 HP
* SS/C ..... Hubert Platt ~ 1967 Fairlane 500 ~ 427/425 HP
* SS/C ..... Ed Skelton ~ 1967 Fairlane 500 ~ 427/425 HP
* SS/C ..... Nate Cohen - Wally Lynn ~ 1967 Fairlane 500 ~ 427/425 HP

* SS/E ..... Ed Warren ~ {1967 Mustang GT ~ 390/320 HP}



I think if you read further down (I see we both did at one time!) Paul realizes further down the thread that Platt's SS/C was from 1968.
This is why I *always* use the class W/P number after the class. The class letter back then meant *nothing* as they changed every doggone year. Drove me nuts until I started adding the number eg
AA/S=7.00
SS/B=7.00 (for 1967)
SS/C=7.70 (for 1967)
SS/C=7.00 (for 1968)
etc



Page 3 Paul actually lists the car weights, which are identical for 1966-67.
AFAIK there were NO Lightweight Fairlanes.
There was a glass hood that took off 40 lb, but that was it.
A garden variety 390 Fairlane and a 427 "Lightweight" Fairlane weighed the same - except for the 40 lb glass hood.
Of course, these numbers are the published SHIPPING weights. Gutted, stripped, etc. Real cars in your driveway were about 200 lb heavier.

From Paul's Page 3:
1966 Ford Fairlane


Model .................... 427/410 HP ........ 427/410 HP ...... 427/425 HP
............................... Steel Hood ......... Glass Hood ....... Glass Hood

Sedan .................... #3280 lbs. .......... #3240 lbs. ......... #3260 lbs.

Hardtop.................. #3320 lbs. .......... #3280 lbs. .......... #3300 lbs.

500 Hardtop ......... #3400 lbs. ........... #3360 lbs. .......... #3380 lbs.
(End of Paul's pg3 quote)

The 66-67 Fairlane saga is really messy because of the glass hood, only factory on the 57 cars produced with it in 1966. FoMoCo made about 229 more 427 Fairlanes and 60 Comets in 1967 but all steel flat hoods. FoMoCo had some fast cars but they didnt build too many because they didnt want to embarrass Mopar or GM on the street. (That was a Joke, but at least half of it is true. To this day I dont think I've ever seen a REAL factory 427 Fairlane on the street, but seen plenty of factory Hemi's for sure).

Pretty much:
* If you see a Fairlane with a glass hood, it *probably* ran in the 7.00 class.
* If you see a 427 Fairlane with a steel hood, it probably ran in the 7.70 or 8.00 class.
One exception: In 1967 ONLY best I can figure, the glass hood 427-4v Fairlane ran in the SS/C=7.70 class. That combo was never factory and disappeared in 1968.

Of course TODAY, you can run whatever you want pretty much, all kinds of combos that never left the factory.

It's useful to get all this down.
I sure hope we are getting it right or one of those "old people" ( a goad) reads all this & corrects it.

Last edited by DeuceCoupe; 09-19-2021 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 09-19-2021, 09:51 AM   #28
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Patrol View Post
IIRC the 60 Pontiac G/SA Douglas & Forys was a 389/318-6v wagon, fits class almost exactly.

........

“however a 58 , a 60 and a 62 model still featured in Stock class finals.”

Do you know what cars/classes those 58, 60, 62 Pontiacs won? I’m still guessing parts of 67 Winter because the sheets don’t give the car year!

58 Jay Hamilton, 60 Douglas & Forys, 62 Ray McClelland

[/B]
Ah, ok.
I was looking in JUST WINTER 67.
B/SA Sargi and F/SA Scoville are still MYSTERY YEARS in there, cant find any info on those cars. Do you know the years or have a sheet that lists the car year? (mine just gave the make, no year of car)
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Old 09-19-2021, 09:56 AM   #29
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Patrol View Post
Re the Douglas Pontiac....318 or 348hp?

.I’m going to review 67 shortly...updated engine specs for the table.
I cant get a 348hp to fit class.
1960 Custom Safari wagon 4dr 6pass w hydramatic:
4458/318=14.02
I dont know if its a Catalina or Custom but wagon weights nearly the same.
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Old 09-19-2021, 06:43 PM   #30
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Default Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

DC - Ok, thx for the analysis on the LW Fairlanes ....I’ll have to re-write that section.

Re the Forys car - thx for the heads up...I’ll change it.

Re the lists - No year model on mine fir 67 Winters..

Last edited by Rat Patrol; 09-19-2021 at 06:45 PM.
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