Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

They got the car down to high 11s with slicks.

Main thing is, they confirm SS/B with R code, SS/C with W Code

Mag is dated Sept 67.

A SUPERB find indeed. I became convinced that the glass hood 427-4v Fairlanes ran in SS/C.770 in 1967 by a much more convoluted process. Good old Roger Huntington, getting right down to it.

But by late 1968, that 4v glass hood combo disappears from the NHRA guide, and then the records set by those cars vanish too. So that never-factory combo went away, at least until the last few years. It's legal again now. Makes our sleuthing even more difficult. We'll get there.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Since I'm always lookin for the Pontiacs, I couldn't help but notice that the new RAIV powered Pontiacs won D/S & D/SA.

Rod Kister had won the Stock points championship in '68, with his big '60 Pontiac rec holder, also named "Big Iron". Then the '69 Judge was followed by a '70 Judge Big Iron.

Not familiar with the other driver's name.

John Thropp ran at least 2 different '57 Pontiac bodies.

In learning this the Kister Big Iron story is another I've tried to follow.
His 1960 389/363hp Super Duty car, followed by a 400/370hp (factored to 380hp) RamAir4 69 GTO, and then a "base" 400/350hp 70 GTO, all with national wins/records.

Kister was runner-up in D/S=9.00 class here at 69 Indy. The narrative I have says Robertson won D/S, but in a 69 Buick and no Buick will fit that class. So I guessed Robertson ran either a RamAir4 or a Z28.

Then from this picture out of Petersen, found with the help of another Class Racer, I concluded this was probably the D/S race where probably Robertson in the Z28 won against runner-up Kister in the 69 RamAir4

https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=320033

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

In learning this the Kister Big Iron story is another I've tried to follow.
His 1960 389/363hp Super Duty car, followed by a 400/370hp (factored to 380hp) RamAir4 69 GTO, and then a "base" 400/350hp 70 GTO, all with national wins/records.

Kister was runner-up in D/S=9.00 class here at 69 Indy. The narrative I have says Robertson won D/S, but in a 69 Buick and no Buick will fit that class. So I guessed Robertson ran either a RamAir4 or a Z28.

Then from this picture out of Petersen, found with the help of another Class Racer, I concluded this was probably the D/S race where probably Robertson in the Z28 won against runner-up Kister in the 69 RamAir4

https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=320033

OK, I think I finally see what you're doin.

You listed 3 POSSIBLE D/S driver/car combo winners, since you were not SURE who, or which combo, won.

I only looked for the blue color to check out the Pontiacs. Never even noticed there were more than one D/S listed.

NOW, do you have any more info on the single D/SA driver you have listed, "b bunker" ?

That name does not ring a bell, for me. I have pics of lots of '69 GTO's. I don't know the names of the driver, or drivers, of all of 'em. If the guy's name was Bill or Billy, I suppose the "Billy's Goat" car I have a pic of could be the car. But it's a long shot.

Would like to know more about that reference to Peterson. How do you look up drag car pics there ?

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by oldskool

OK, I think I finally see what you're doin.

You listed 3 POSSIBLE D/S driver/car combo winners, since you were not SURE who, or which combo, won.

I only looked for the blue color to check out the Pontiacs. Never even noticed there were more than one D/S listed.

NOW, do you have any more info on the single D/SA driver you have listed, "b bunker" ?

That name does not ring a bell, for me. I have pics of lots of '69 GTO's. I don't know the names of the driver, or drivers, of all of 'em. If the guy's name was Bill or Billy, I suppose the "Billy's Goat" car I have a pic of could be the car. But it's a long shot.

Would like to know more about that reference to Peterson. How do you look up drag car pics there ?

Exactly!
I'll just make some guesses when I dont know.

All I have on b bunker D/SA is:

bill bunker, N Miami FL

Oh man you will enjoy all those pictures!
On Petersen: Here's how to look them up.

Single picture if known:
https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=940202


General Search for a Meet: Start eg here:
https://archive.petersen.org/pages/home.php

Then click the1960s box. (Doing that will take you here):
https://archive.petersen.org/pages/s...=&k=&restypes=

Then type:
“1969 nhra springnationals”
Into the search box. (without the quotes)
16 pages of cars comes up, all PROBABLY from that meet.

you can search stuff like 1964 winternationals, 1965 US nationals, etc.
Not all the meets are in there, but a lot of them are.

[Rat Patrol]

DC - Couple of possibke amendments for your 69 list.

1 - ‘Ben’ Wolfe’ - B/SA SpringNats - Try this guy

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...69-pontiac-gto

2 - Re Tom Schumacher, B/Stock Indy - Just a factoid.....The car he beat was his old Fairlane Hardtop W Code. The driver, was not only the guy he sold it to, but Tom had borrowed this guys steel hood off his street car at the. springNats when tech disallowed his glass hood! Small world!

I have asked Ronnie Crawford to try and find out his name - Ronnie crewed for Tom.

3 - I cannot find A NY reference to a P Scalla on the net...most frustrating!

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

DC - Couple of possibke amendments for your 69 list.

1 - ‘Ben’ Wolfe’ - B/SA SpringNats - Try this guy

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...69-pontiac-gto

2 - Re Tom Schumacher, B/Stock Indy - Just a factoid.....The car he beat was his old Fairlane Hardtop W Code. The driver, was not only the guy he sold it to, but Tom had borrowed this guys steel hood off his street car at the. springNats when tech disallowed his glass hood! Small world!

I have asked Ronnie Crawford to try and find out his name - Ronnie crewed for Tom.

3 - I cannot find A NY reference to a P Scalla on the net...most frustrating!

Good find!
It doesnt SEEM like a fit, since the RA4 was factored at 380hp, so
3500/380=9.21 which would run in D/SA=9.00 class.

But as I look, the ONLY wins I have for the RA4 are in 1970, not 1969.
Maybe the RA4 was factored to say 425hp in 1969, and then since wins were rare & it was factored SO high, it was the 1st of several engines to get factored back DOWN.

This makes some sense, because the RA4 Gonkulates at 424hp, and I've tried everything I can to get it lower - that doggone RA4 just wants to make power.

Well I will put that in as a strawman then, it's sure hard to argue with given the name Ben Wolf is right there on the sheet. 69 could easily be misread as 61 so that makes some sense too.

Awesome, another RA4 win, and 2 classes up from where it ran in 1970.

On Scalla, try Scalia maybe? Like the Supreme Court judge?

EDIT 27 Sept:
Well now I'm not so sure of the whole RA4 factored to 425hp then downfactored to 380hp thing:

1. The Motor Trend article guys are Wilson "Sonny" Wolfe Jr and Wilson Wolfe III - I'm not seeing a Ben Wolfe.
2. Per below, the Ben Wolf that won SPring 69 B/SA=8.00 class is likely Ben Wolf of Wolf & McClelland, I think oldskool nailed that one.
3. Most disturbing, I just realized that Indy 69 D/SA=9.00 class was won by a 69 Pontiac. We dont know for SURE that the Bunker Pontiac is a GTO RA4, but a RA3 at 3500/366=9.56 would run in E/SA=9.50 class.
And a RA4 at the good old 380 hp Factor fits D/SA=9.00
3500/380=9.21
Then again, if Bunker was a 69 Firebird RA3, then
3318/366=9.07 is a great fit.
Seems the only "Big" Pontiac in D/SA=9.00 would be the good old 62 Cat Superduty, but that's a 62 not a 69.

SO: As of Sep 1969 it LOOKS like the RA4 was factored at 380hp, just like in 1970. Unless it got de-factored between June and September 1969 (possible I guess but not likely) then the Indy 69 B/SA=8.00 car CANNOT be a RA4 GTO. Unless Bunker's D/SA=9.00 "Pontiac" was a Firebird RA3, then that re-opens the possibility that the RA4 was factored at 425hp for all of 1969.

But, Ben Wolf seems unrelated to Wilson "Sonny" Wolfe and his 69 RA4 GTO, so there's no evidence other than a way-over-factored fit that Ben Wolf's B/SA=8.00 winner was a 69 RA4 GTO. But if not, then what was it?
A Firebird RA4 factored to 400hp? (Then down to 380hp for 1970?)
Could be. Or not.

Back to Square 1?

[oldskool]

I figure this has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

BUT, that name Wolfe triggered this thought to me.

I have some pics of a '62 Pontiac with the name Wolf & McClelland over the door. Have pics with it running C/SA & D/SA.

Name not even spelled the same. So, the similarity of a Wolf '62 Pontiac to a Wolfe '69 Pontiac is probably accidental.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by oldskool

I figure this has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

BUT, that name Wolfe triggered this thought to me.

I have some pics of a '62 Pontiac with the name Wolf & McClelland over the door. Have pics with it running C/SA & D/SA.

Name not even spelled the same. So, the similarity of a Wolf '62 Pontiac to a Wolfe '69 Pontiac is probably accidental.

And Its Ben Wolf per Doug Boyce's book, same as Ben Wolf 61 Pontiac listed as winner of B/SA at 1969 Springnationals.

So either the name is spelled wrong in the article or tts a coincidence that Ben Wolf ran a Pontiac and Wilson "Sonny" Wolfe also ran a Pontiac.
Maybe coincidence.

I'm now betting the B/SA win in Spring 1969 was likely the Ben Wolf of Wolf&McClelland, since McClelland was still running the big 62 Cat in D/SA=9.00 class at the same meet (and won).

[oldskool]

"...Maybe the RA4 was factored to say 425hp in 1969, and then since wins were rare & it was factored SO high, it was the 1st of several engines to get factored back DOWN..."

Never heard this before. Would love to know the hp factors, & change dates of factors & classes run, thru the years.

I have pics of a couple of '69 Judge Stockers, with the words NHRA Nat'l Record Holder, on 'em. But IIRC, they are in either D/S or E/S. So, would that have been the RA3 engine ? Just not familiar with those old ratings, at all.

In '73, when I started, the tech guys at my local track put the 350hp engine in E/S, the 366hp in D/S & the 370hp in C/S.

Have to tell this story. In '74, I ran against a Stage 1 455 Buick, in the Stock finals. It was running C/S. I was running D/S. We were running off our track records. I had set mine & lowered it a couple of times. I assume he had set his, don't know. Mine was quicker than his. So he got to leave 1st.

After I ran him, they said that he'd won. But, there were no time slips given. So, I didn't know if I'd broke out, or what. So, I went up into the tower to see if I could find out the details.

Well, the driver of that Buick was real good friends with the track operator & the staff in the tower. So, they were all up there laffing & drinkin beer & havin a good time. When I came in & ask about the numbers, it was like a pack of wolves had turned on me. The guy basically just told me that I'd lost, so just get the blankity-blank out of here !

Well, I did exactly as he said. BUT, I came back to the track the next week, with a plan. When I teched in, I claimed the 370hp engine. All numbers & lettering on the windows were done with shoe polish. So, there were none on it. And the local tech guys didn't know anything about a Pontiac.

So, they put me in C/S, & wrote it on the windows. During time trails you could notify the tower & run to set a new track record. So, I did that & made a pass as hard as the Goat would run, which was in the 13.50's. That was then the new C/S track record. I came back to the pits, loaded the Goat on the trailer, & left.

Well, the Buick was still street driven. It would NOT run 13.50's. I can't remember if it would even run high 13's. So, it didn't really have much of a chance, if it had to run off that new C/S track record. I figure his buddies in the tower just left his record where it had been. Don't really remember that part. BUT, I can assure you, that guy remembered me & my Goat, for many years after that. Probably called me all sorts of ugly names.

After that race, I pulled the engine out of my Goat & put it into a '68 Bird, so my girlfriend could race. She learned quick. Had a legal Stocker engine built for her car, over the winter. She won her first 6 races of '75, plus the LA State Championship race, held at our local track in Monroe. At the end of that season, I put in a 4-speed Muncie & street gears & she used the car for her daily driver for the next couple of years. Only got one ticket, which was for illegal exhausts, or some sort of charge.

Hey, if you live long enuff, you can make lots of good memories.

[DeuceCoupe]

Indeed, factoring is bad enough but factoring CHANGES drive me nuts.

Your 1973 memories jive with what I've thought & heard from Dwight S:

3500/380= 9.21 C/SA=9.00 in 1973 RA4 (factored up from 370)
3500/366= 9.56 D/SA=9.50 in 1973 RA3
3500/350=10.00 E/SA=10.00 in 1973 Base

It's just going to be hard to explain any Pontiac running with W/P in the 8.00-8.49 class. Even the RA4 Firebirds are 3318/380=8.73 so no fit there either.