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Old 09-13-2021, 09:02 PM   #61
oldskool
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

'65 was the 2nd year of the GTO. I think they looked a lot better. I liked the stacked headlights, the hood, & the rear better. The '65 is my 2nd favorite year of the Goat.

Once again, Packer Pontiac sponsored a GTO Stocker, as did quite a few other Pontiac dealers, I'm sure.

Words on the Knafel '65 GTO seems to indicate that both Bill Abraham & Arlen Vanke drove the car some, with good success. I assume this is the case.

In '65, Pontiac also offered a big car 2+2. Top option was a Tri-power 421. But, this 421 was NOT a 421SD. Not even close. These later 421's were street friendly. The 421SD - not so much. It was designed to make power for racing.

Jack Matyas drove a big '65 Ragtop to the '72 Summer Nats G/SA class win. At some point, he named the car "Chieftain".
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Last edited by oldskool; 09-14-2021 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:19 PM   #62
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

In Pontiac circles, '66 is known as the last year of the 389, the last year of the 421, & the last year of Tri-Power. I also think of it as the last year a GTO was limited to a 2-speed, if auto trans equipped.

The '66 Tri-Power is said to be the best of any year. Therefore, the '66 Tri-Power GTO's ran quite well.

The Knafel '66 Tri-Power GTO car, which I call the "Trophy Car", MAY have been the winningest '66 GTO ever. Don't know. Knafel actually ran at least 2 of these cars that looked similar. One had a lighter colored bottom, with a darker colored top, the other with a darker bottom & lighter top. Don't know if they ran identical set-ups, or not. They did haul 'em on the same rig, as a couple of the pics below depict.

Royal Pontiac also fielded at least one of the '66 Goats. Once again, I assume that many Pontiac dealers, across the country, also fielded, or at least sponsored a '66 GTO.

Don't know when the last competitive '66 Tri-Power GTO was active. Anybody know ?
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Old 09-14-2021, 01:15 PM   #63
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskool View Post
In Pontiac circles, '66 is known as the last year of the 389, the last year of the 421, & the last year of Tri-Power. I also think of it as the last year a GTO was limited to a 2-speed, if auto trans equipped.

The '66 Tri-Power is said to be the best of any year. Therefore, the '66 Tri-Power GTO's ran quite well.

The Knafel '66 Tri-Power GTO car, which I call the "Trophy Car", MAY have been the winningest '66 GTO ever. Don't know. Knafel actually ran at least 2 of these cars that looked similar. One had a lighter colored bottom, with a darker colored top, the other with a darker bottom & lighter top. Don't know if they ran identical set-ups, or not. They did haul 'em on the same rig, as a couple of the pics below depict.

Royal Pontiac also fielded at least one of the '66 Goats. Once again, I assume that many Pontiac dealers, across the country, also fielded, or at least sponsored a '66 GTO.

Don't know when the last competitive '66 Tri-Power GTO was active. Anybody know ?
One of the best is pictured here.The CT. car of Gaudreau and Kovitch. Bob dominated the class at Indy , only to be tossed for a suspension violation, bringing in arch rival Loyed Woodland... 12.50's was damn fast at that time.
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:11 PM   #64
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

There were some MAJOR changes for Pontiac, with the introduction of the '67 models. Many of these changes would affect Pontiac drag racing for many years to come, even to this day.

(1) The 1st 400 cube engine.

(2) The 1st 428 cube engine.

(3) The 1st Firebird.

(4) The 1st TH400 in a GTO.

(5) The 1st Q-jet carb on a Pontiac V8.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I haven't been able to find pics, or other evidence, of large numbers of '67 GTO drag cars. I think Mark posted pics of some.

But, I've found several pics of '67 Bird drag cars from the early years. There were probably lots of others, around the country.

Because the 428 was available only in the big cars, there were apparently very few 428 powered cars on the tracks. I suppose that a '69 GP was about the sportiest body a 428 ever came in.

Because of the current GT rules, in Super Stock, the 428 is now used in several strong GT cars. If somebody wanted to run a '67 428 powered Stocker, IMO, it could possibly be made competitive, with it's current 350hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

2 of the '67 Bird Stockers I'll mention have done real well running a 400, with a current 338hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Therefore, at only 12hp higher, the 350hp rated '67 428 just MIGHT be competitive. Yes, the big '67 Pontiacs are heavy. BUT, there have been quite a few heavy cars & wagons that were very competitive.

NHRA allows the 428 to use the same 670 heads, with the same 65cc chamber size as the '67 400.

One indication that nobody has tried to run a serious 428 powered Stocker, in recent years, is the fact that NHRA does not list any legal replacement pistons for it.

After looking at the weight of possible '67 428 powered Stockers, I was surprised to see that several models would have a minimum weight, with driver, of less than 4000 lbs. That's not too much heavier than some later GTO's & 2nd gen Birds.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2000

So, looks to me like the only thing that might slow the big cars down is that they produce more wind resistance. Don't know how much that would slow a car down, as compared to a '67 Bird body, with exactly the same engine.

But all this is just my thoughts. Doubt anybody will ever build a '67 428 powered Stocker.
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Last edited by oldskool; 09-14-2021 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:11 PM   #65
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskool View Post
There were some MAJOR changes for Pontiac, with the introduction of the '67 models. Many of these changes would affect Pontiac drag racing for many years to come, even to this day.

(1) The 1st 400 cube engine.

(2) The 1st 428 cube engine.

(3) The 1st Firebird.

(4) The 1st TH400 in a GTO.

(5) The 1st Q-jet carb on a Pontiac V8.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I haven't been able to find pics, or other evidence, of large numbers of '67 GTO drag cars. I think Mark posted pics of some.

But, I've found several pics of '67 Bird drag cars from the early years. There were probably lots of others, around the country.

Because the 428 was available only in the big cars, there were apparently very few 428 powered cars on the tracks. I suppose that a '69 GP was about the sportiest body a 428 ever came in.

Because of the current GT rules, in Super Stock, the 428 is now used in several strong GT cars. If somebody wanted to run a '67 428 powered Stocker, IMO, it could possibly be made competitive, with it's current 350hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

2 of the '67 Bird Stockers I'll mention have done real well running a 400, with a current 338hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Therefore, at only 12hp higher, the 350hp rated '67 428 just MIGHT be competitive. Yes, the big '67 Pontiacs are heavy. BUT, there have been quite a few heavy cars & wagons that were very competitive.

NHRA allows the 428 to use the same 670 heads, with the same 65cc chamber size as the '67 400.

One indication that nobody has tried to run a serious 428 powered Stocker, in recent years, is the fact that NHRA does not list any legal replacement pistons for it.

After looking at the weight of possible '67 428 powered Stockers, I was surprised to see that several models would have a minimum weight, with driver, of less than 4000 lbs. That's not too much heavier than some later GTO's & 2nd gen Birds.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2000

So, looks to me like the only thing that might slow the big cars down is that they produce more wind resistance. Don't know how much that would slow a car down, as compared to a '67 Bird body, with exactly the same engine.

But all this is just my thoughts. Doubt anybody will ever build a '67 428 powered Stocker.

But based on the links you posted the 428 has a lower CR from Pontiac than the 400 and has to run a thicker head gasket .050" verses the 400's .042". Hard to say about other specs as the 428 is lacking some data.


Let me just add that the difference in head gasket is only 2 cc's.

The 400 ci 10.75:1 should have a total volume of 84.3 cc's

The 428 ci 10.5:1 should have a total volume of 92.2 cc's


Stan

Last edited by Stan Weiss; 09-14-2021 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:53 PM   #66
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

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But based on the links you posted the 428 has a lower CR from Pontiac than the 400 and has to run a thicker head gasket .050" verses the 400's .042". Hard to say about other specs as the 428 is lacking some data.


Let me just add that the difference in head gasket is only 2 cc's.

The 400 ci 10.75:1 should have a total volume of 84.3 cc's

The 428 ci 10.5:1 should have a total volume of 92.2 cc's


Stan

Looks like this:

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Old 09-14-2021, 11:07 PM   #67
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

'68 was another year that brought several changes to Pontiac.

(1) The 1st round port heads.

(2) The "041" cam.

(3) The A-bodies got a major body design change.

I assume that there have been more '68 Birds used for drag racing than any other single Pontiac body.

They were probably very popular, at strips all over the country, from the time they 1st came out. Not aware of any major wins they got, 'til '73. That was the year Truman Fields won Stock & set a new nat record, @ Indy.

As most Pontiac race fans know, that same car won Indy again, in '77, with Mike McKinney driving. At that race, Truman got a class win, in Mike's former '68 Bird. Both drivers & cars picked up lots of other wins. Many here know that Todd Hoven got one of those cars & ran it as a Truman Fields "Hard Times" tribute car, a few years back. I assume he still owns it.

There are several '68 Bird Stockers that have run 10's, in recent years. Some are still active. The drivers include: Bob Aceves, Leo Glasbrenner, Ron Prince, Adam Strang, Julie Biermann, & Chris Stephenson.
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Old 09-14-2021, 11:20 PM   #68
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

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Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone View Post
Looks like this:

Yeah, the factory 428 pistons had a small dish, to reduce CR.

BUT, I noticed that the NHRA specs describes the 428 pistons as "Flat w/notches". Don't mention a dish.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

But, in order to get a piston made that NHRA would approve, I assume it would have to be made very similar to the original, including the dish.

But if not, stranger things have happened, concerning NHRA rules.

Last edited by oldskool; 09-14-2021 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 09-14-2021, 11:33 PM   #69
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

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Looks like this:




Mark,
Thanks. I knew that 428's had a dish in the piston, but did not know the '67s had it.

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Old 09-14-2021, 11:46 PM   #70
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Default Re: Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

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Originally Posted by oldskool View Post
Yeah, the factory 428 pistons had a small dish, to reduce CR.

BUT, I noticed that the NHRA specs describes the 428 pistons as "Flat w/notches". Don't mention a dish.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

But, in order to get a piston made that NHRA would approve, I assume it would have to be made very similar to the original, including the dish.

But if not, stranger things have happened, concerning NHRA rules.

Look at the next 2 columns after Flat w/notches. Dome/Dish Vol and Dome/Dish Hgt where it says No Spec.


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