Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Well, the pics I have of NHRA '64 GTO Stockers don't have chalk markings. But I do have pics of 3, which had B/S PAINTED on 'em. Assume all 3 were Tri-Power cars.

None have an ET marked on 'em. The pic of the Gay Pontiac GTO was very small, since it was part of a pic of their 3-car hauler rig. But, it does have B/S on it. The Packer Pontiac GTO LOOKS like a serious Stocker. But I don't know how quick it was. Assume there were some running mid 12's.

The "Lil 2 Speed" car apparently ran AHRA, which had different rules. So the chalk markings are quite different than NHRA markings. I think they could run one 2-barrel carb, or one 4-barrel carb, or multiple carbs, with the same car. It would just be in a different class, with each carb set-up.

Gays was a 62 Ventura. I believe, ran A/Stock in 63, B/Stock in 64.

The Papoose is what I was looking for. B/Stock would seem to be the right fit for the car in 64- although I don’t know the quoted weight so can’t consult the charts. I’ll assume its what the 64 Goats were slotted into.

[Rat Patrol]

OS - I have a conundrum for you.

In the Pontiac stocker thread, you quote Boyce’s book ( I won’t judge��) as saying this car was totalled in a wreck after coming runner up at Indy in class.

1 SS/S was a one meet, one year class in 62.

2- The winning SS/S cars and r/ups are in my web page, they were Proffits Ventura and Faubels Dodge - both 410/425 hp cars.

3 - This car is depicted as a 368hp 389cui 61 Cat .....

So, it couldn't possibly have run in SS/S in 62 competitively.

Do you think they might have swapped in a 421SD?

Or, is this more Boyce ‘laziness’ where they’ve guessed the driver, car or picture?

Either way, it was not a runner up in SS/S unless it was in disguise!

HOWEVER - There IS a possibility it ran as r/up in A/SA at Indy 62, as a 61 389 34?hp car driven by Ralph Hardt won class...and I have nor record of the r/up.

But surely they didn’t swap out motors at the meet.....which makes me think a different Packer car MAY have run as r/up in A/SA.

Your thoughts?

[oldskool]

Maybe this will help clear it up, some.

https://www.nhra.com/news/2021/421-n...orever-footage

The 421SD engine was available to some racers, to run in their '61 model cars.

“Pontiac is now offering to qualified drivers a 421 cubic inch high-performance engine option. The engine is rated at 373 horsepower and features dual four-barrel carburetors, a solid-lifter camshaft, and high-capacity aluminum exhaust manifolds. The 421 engine is available only with related heavy-duty driveline components. It can be fitted to any Catalina or Ventura 2-door model.”

NOTE: For MOST of the info presented in the Jr. Stock book, or any other drag racing book about stuff that happened back in the early days, I have absolutely no way to tell exactly what info is correct & what info is not correct. So, if I post something that was printed in the book, that was incorrect, I am NOT trying to deceive anyone. Example: The caption of one pic said a car had a 421 engine. IIRC, it was Mark Yacavone who knew the car & said it actually had a 389. I have no way of knowing what engine the car had. Hey, for all I know, the guy may have run both engines, at different times. Lots of drag cars have run different size engines.

Here is a pic of a '61 Packer Pontiac. Has 389 on the side. Could have a 421 under the hood, or not. The 2nd pic is of a '61 Pontiac which has 373hp wrote on it, & A/S on the windshield. I assume it was one of the '61's that got one of the over the counter 421 conversion engines. But, it could actually have had a 389, or the 373hp 421? Point is, writing on the car body doesn't always agree with what engine is actually under the hood. At least, I don't think there was ever a rule about that.

The pics I have of cars which have SS/S on 'em are of '62 models. Several '61's have OS/S on 'em. IIRC, that was a one year class. Pic #4 shows the A/SA car you mentioned. Don't know if it is of the final round you mentioned, or not. If so, looks like the loser was a '61 Pontiac ragtop, #620. Don't know if any of this will help with your fact finding, or not.

[oldskool]

"...Gays was a 62 Ventura. I believe, ran A/Stock in 63, B/Stock in 64..."

Yes, the '62 was in that pic.

BUT, the reason I posted that pic is because it's the only pic I have of the Gay Pontiac '64 GTO. I think Roy Gay drove it. Don Gay drove the '62.

Because the GTO is so small in the only pic I have of it, it gets real fuzzy, as you try to enlarge it, with free online photo resizing sites. But, you can see that it was #657. "Roy Gay" is painted on the door.

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Maybe this will help clear it up, some.

https://www.nhra.com/news/2021/421-n...orever-footage

The 421SD engine was available to some racers, to run in their '61 model cars.

“Pontiac is now offering to qualified drivers a 421 cubic inch high-performance engine option. The engine is rated at 373 horsepower and features dual four-barrel carburetors, a solid-lifter camshaft, and high-capacity aluminum exhaust manifolds. The 421 engine is available only with related heavy-duty driveline components. It can be fitted to any Catalina or Ventura 2-door model.”

NOTE: For MOST of the info presented in the Jr. Stock book, or any other drag racing book about stuff that happened back in the early days, I have absolutely no way to tell exactly what info is correct & what info is not correct. So, if I post something that was printed in the book, that was incorrect, I am NOT trying to deceive anyone. Example: The caption of one pic said a car had a 421 engine. IIRC, it was Mark Yacavone who knew the car & said it actually had a 389. I have no way of knowing what engine the car had. Hey, for all I know, the guy may have run both engines, at different times. Lots of drag cars have run different size engines.

Here is a pic of a '61 Packer Pontiac. Has 389 on the side. Could have a 421 under the hood, or not. The 2nd pic is of a '61 Pontiac which has 373hp wrote on it, & A/S on the windshield. I assume it was one of the '61's that got one of the over the counter 421 conversion engines. But, it could actually have had a 389, or the 373hp 421? Point is, writing on the car body doesn't always agree with what engine is actually under the hood. At least, I don't think there was ever a rule about that.

The pics I have of cars which have SS/S on 'em are of '62 models. Several '61's have OS/S on 'em. IIRC, that was a one year class. Pic #4 shows the A/SA car you mentioned. Don't know if it is of the final round you mentioned, or not. If so, looks like the loser was a '61 Pontiac ragtop, #620. Don't know if any of this will help with your fact finding, or not.

Thx OS - Understand I’m aware you weren’t ‘inventing things’.

My concern was simply how a a Packker car could get runner up in SS/S...because the results are documented.

For what its worth, I agree they could be running any motor - but IF Boyce is correct about the r/up status....I think its far more likely to have been A/SA.

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...Gays was a 62 Ventura. I believe, ran A/Stock in 63, B/Stock in 64..."

Yes, the '62 was in that pic.

BUT, the reason I posted that pic is because it's the only pic I have of the Gay Pontiac '64 GTO. I think Roy Gay drove it. Don Gay drove the '62.

Because the GTO is so small in the only pic I have of it, it gets real fuzzy, as you try to enlarge it, with free online photo resizing sites. But, you can see that it was #657. "Roy Gay" is painted on the door.

Sorry mate, I completely overlooked Roy’s car. Thanks for posting it!

[oldskool]

"...SS/S was a one meet, one year class in 62..."

"one meet" ???

I just looked at '62 in the Larry Davis SS book. According to that book, the SS/S class was run at BOTH the Winter Nats & @ Indy.

Wouldn't that make SS/S at least a "two meet" class ?

Just read that the SS/S class was ONLY for '62 model cars. And they had to be showroom available models.

The '62 model is the only year model that qualifies to run a 421SD engine in Stock Elim. The '63 Swiss Cheese models had to run FX, because so few were made.

Being a Pontiac guy, I'll also mention this. According to the book, Pontiacs swept A/FX, SS/S, SS/SA, S/S, S/SA, & A/SA, @ the '62 Winter Nats !

According to the SS book, Hayden Proffitt drove the A/FX & SS/S cars. Lloyd Cox dove the SS/SA car, Jess Tyree the S/S car, Carol Cox the S/SA car, & Don Bennett the A/SA car.

According to the book, Pontiacs only won 4 of those 6 classes @ Indy '62. Lloyd Cox won A/FX, Bill Sasse won S/S & Bob Harrop was RU, both driving '61 Pontiacs. Carol Cox won S/SA, & Ralph Hardt won A/SA.

Don't wanna forget that a Pontiac powered dragster beat Don Garlits in the dragster final !

[oldskool]

"...In the Pontiac stocker thread, you quote Boyce’s book ( I won’t judge��) as saying this car was totalled in a wreck after coming runner up at Indy in class...it couldn't possibly have run in SS/S in 62 competitively."

Just went back & looked in the book. It's on page 14. Says Stan Antlocer drove it, & was RU in "Super Stock", NOT SS/S.

Can't verify anything, EXCEPT that this is what is in the Jr. Stock book, on page 14.

The SS book says that Bob Harrop was driving the '61 Pontiac that was S/S RU @ Indy '62. I wasn't there. Don't know who was RU.

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...SS/S was a one meet, one year class in 62..."

"one meet" ???

I just looked at '62 in the Larry Davis SS book. According to that book, the SS/S class was run at BOTH the Winter Nats & @ Indy.

Wouldn't that make SS/S at least a "two meet" class ?

Just read that the SS/S class was ONLY for '62 model cars. And they had to be showroom available models.

The '62 model is the only year model that qualifies to run a 421SD engine in Stock Elim. The '63 Swiss Cheese models had to run FX, because so few were made.

Being a Pontiac guy, I'll also mention this. According to the book, Pontiacs swept A/FX, SS/S, SS/SA, S/S, S/SA, & A/SA, @ the '62 Winter Nats !

According to the SS book, Hayden Proffitt drove the A/FX & SS/S cars. Lloyd Cox dove the SS/SA car, Jess Tyree the S/S car, Carol Cox the S/SA car, & Don Bennett the A/SA car.

According to the book, Pontiacs only won 4 of those 6 classes @ Indy '62. Lloyd Cox won A/FX, Bill Sasse won S/S & Bob Harrop was RU, both driving '61 Pontiacs. Carol Cox won S/SA, & Ralph Hardt won A/SA.

Don't wanna forget that a Pontiac powered dragster beat Don Garlits in the dragster final !

You’re correct...I was confusing it with OS/S.

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...In the Pontiac stocker thread, you quote Boyce’s book ( I won’t judge��) as saying this car was totalled in a wreck after coming runner up at Indy in class...it couldn't possibly have run in SS/S in 62 competitively."

Just went back & looked in the book. It's on page 14. Says Stan Antlocer drove it, & was RU in "Super Stock", NOT SS/S.

Can't verify anything, EXCEPT that this is what is in the Jr. Stock book, on page 14.

The SS book says that Bob Harrop was driving the '61 Pontiac that was S/S RU @ Indy '62. I wasn't there. Don't know who was RU.

I’ll dig around tomorrow. Wouldn't be the first time Davis or Boyce has been wrong. 👍