Is this legal?

[dartman]

If you look hard, you can see that is is bolt on.but are you allowed to weld that brace in? that's the question

[442OLDS]

I know the car in question has done well at several IHRA events.

IHRA and NHRA rules are not always the same.Maybe IHRA will have no problem with this?

[Notch1320]

The real question is... When will the rule book be written clearly? This class has been around for how long now??? How many years of combined experience with this class are tied up in this post alone trying to figure out this one simple rule. The tech department needs to correct the rule book when a clarification is addressed by a racer. Not just relpy via e-mail with a vague answer to the one racer psoing the question. That is how the, "I was told" problems snowballs in the mess we have here today. This statement applies to the roller rocker issue as well.

[Doug Blackley]

Wouldn't be surprised if there is a rule clarification issued soon. Using the stock sway bar works fine and don't have to worry about any issues whether it's legal or not. Factory provided all the mounting points when they built the car.

[Notch1320]

Update:

Here is the entire days e-mail traffic between myself and Div 7 Tech (Pat Cvengros) Here is what he has to say concerning anti-roll bars.

ME: Pat,

I have a question concerning the use and installation of anti-roll bars in Stock.

Under SUSPENSION, Rear: It states, "Sway bar(s) optional." Is an anti-roll bar considered a sway bar, or a traction device? Both are used to prevent body roll, so what section does it fall under?

Under TRACTION BARS: Can you define "Traction Device"? Is an anti-roll bar a traction device, or suspension item? I ask because the TRACTION BAR section reads: Bolt on traction devices permitted, provided front mounting point is no farther forward that stock mounting point for control arms on coil-spring-cars, or stock front mounting point in rear. Device must be installed under leaf spring and bolt to leaf-spring attaching point in rear. Is this geared towards slapper bars or Caltracs?

The main question I have is can an anti-roll bar be welded in, or does it have to be bolted in? How can/should it be attached to the rear end housing? Can the links be adjustable?

The rule book is very vague on all of this in my opinion, and the majority of Stockers you look under have welded in anti-roll bars along with adjustable links. Only a hand full of them that I have seen are bolted in. Preventing body roll and the ability to adjust it to a particular track, vehicle or condition seems that it would only aid in drivers safety by being able to correct an ill launching vehicle. Welding these in vs. bolting them in would also be a safer way of doing things as well considering 90% of the anti-roll bars available today are weld in and would require extensive modification to "bolt" them in.

Can I get some clarification on this and possibly push for the rule book to be adjusted with clear guidance on this matter to avoid any further confusion.

I think someone may have already posed this question asking...

"I was told I could use an anti-rollbar on the rearend in stock but it had to be a bolt-in unit.
Is it legal to weld in box tubing for mounting the anti-rollbar?"

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...via-suspension

I am not sure if the way this question was asked answered the entire topic at hand.

Thank you for your time,

Shawn Allsup

PAT: "NHRA views an anti roll bar and sway bar as the same; and that they be bolted in." As for the article on Competition Plus, that is not acceptable for NHRA Stock Eliminator.

ME: That being said, nothing in the rule book states that a sway bar (anti-roll bar) has to be bolted in. Sway bars are listed under the SUSPENSION section as optional. The rule book should clearly state this!

As I stated earlier, MANY Stock Eliminator cars out there have these parts welded in. People build a car around a set of rules, and those rules need to be clear. If a car shows up to a race and is booted because of a rule that is not specifically stated in the rule book, then what happens? What is keeping that person from going around to every race and looking at every car and pointing out the same issue.

I write regulations and tech manuals for the US military. Items that are vague are left up to interpretation and often lead to a decision being made, and the text changed to reflect. Until it is changed, it is considered legal.

I am just looking for a solid answer/solution to an unclear issue that is currently bouncing around among the racers.

Shawn

PAT: "To be more specific, sway bars are used on the rear end of a vehicle is a traction device, which we do clearly state must be bolted in/on, not welded. I am not aware of any NHRA Stock Eliminator car having a welded sway bar/ anti rotation bar; but I have not seen every single cars that participates either. Items that seem vague in specific class rules are clearly addressed on page XV of the 2011 NHRA Rulebook under HOW TO USE THIS RULEBOOK it reads in part “it is a general rule that unless optional performance equipment or performance related modifications is specifically permitted by this rulebook, it is prohibited.” Therefore it would not be considered legal, as it is with the Military documents you write. With that being said, it does not state any where in the rulebook that you can weld the bar or any associated brackets; so it would be illegal."

So... the "HOW TO USE THIS RULEBOOK" is the catch all. I don't agree with it, or the way the rules are vaguely written, but I'm just a bottom feeder Stock Eliminator racer. I hope this puts some of this to bed concerning the anti-roll bar issue. Now the panhard bar....that is another mess I want no part of.

It looks like myself, and a few other racers have some work to do.

[442OLDS]

In the IHRA rulebook for Stock under TRACTION BARS it says coil spring-equipped cars may have strengthened mounting points.

So I guess it is okay if you bolt it to the strengthened mounting point in IHRA?

[Travis Miller]

Originally Posted by Chris1529

need Travis' input.

My input is that Pat Cvengros nailed it with his answer. I must also say that I have only seen bolted in anti-rollbars on NHRA Stock Eliminator cars, none that were welded in...because if I had seen one I would have definitely made an issue out of it!

Looks like it might be time to reinstate my disclaimer.

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

[Barry Polley]

If they allow this then I want my wheelie bars back.

[Rich Biebel]

I have a '97 Firebird LT-1 Stocker that was once my car. A friend let me race it a couple times this year. It hooks very well and I have been in the 1.29's with it....Leaves wheels up and no body roll.....

NO WELDED in anything.....

Pete Z bolt on bars......adjustable bolt in torque arm......bolt in torque arm crossmember......STOCK non adjustable panhard bar or lateral locator if you would like to call it and there is also a reinforcement bar that is on there but I think a lot of people remove it....I have it on and have wheelie bars.....

It all needs to be checked for loose bolts or any cracking of brackets....

Both problems have been found in the past.....

I always understood Stocker rear suspension items had to be bolt on only to be legal. NO WELDING.... I wondered how these anti-rollbars or swaybars if you like to call it that could be advertised for stockers and are weld in items.......

I could go a lot further by asking how can some of the new cars be legal........Completely welded in 4 link type rear suspenions from what I recall seeing a couple years ago....and these cars are out racing and accepted.....No or NO ? Which is it.....

So NHRA Tech all of a sudden says no welding or adjustable panhard bars?

Right......

Splain this to me Lucy......

[dartman]

After reading"HOW TO USE THIS RULEBOOK" ,what I got out of it was in short is "just because it doesn't say you can't,doesn't mean you can."