We need a new "instant" trigger!

[jimi]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

If we wanted to bracket race, with absurdly expensive high maintenance cars, we could always go with Super Pro, Pro, Heavy, and Street. We could even do that at local tracks.

No thanks. If I have to bracket race all the time, I'll give up racing and double or triple my time hunting and fishing.

this is not i am telling you what to do but, the last few years i have been fishing and hunting and playing football baseball working taking care of my dad you all know life priorities,try it some time and your perspective and everyones perspective on class racing will change! for me to do it like i used to 10 to 12 nhra races a year with my present mind set toward nhra things would need to change, i still have that fire inside me that wants to do nothing but dragrace but nhra "enhanced" me in 2002 and it changed me forever, as for bracket racing get off your high horse and this goes out to all stock super stock racers "WE ALL ARE BRACKET RACERS", every one needs to go to your local tack and look at bracket cars today there is no cheap cars anymore, to think week in week out bracket guys are cheap is an insult to all of them! i do plenty of work on those cars and engines and they spend five times as much as us s/ss dicks! so dont try to minimize bracket racing it is what it has been for 40 years in s/ss and i think it is time for some kind of overhaul.

p.s. you do bracket race all the time,

p.s.s in 22 years of racing my stocker i have had exactly 2 heads up runs during eliminations .........

[bsa633]

Originally Posted by jimi

p.s.s in 22 years of racing my stocker i have had exactly 2 heads up runs during eliminations .........

How did you like them runs? .. reading your posts.. you dont have to answer..

I think it would be a big mistake to take the headsup runs out of the eliminator..even if there are alot of issues right now i must say....it would make it much less interesting for everyone.....to race in bracket mode all the time..500 pounds in the trunk..Nah..i think alot of us still is searching for that .01 here and there..thats why we do it...to let those that dont like doing that tell us it's only a bracket race is just not right...and also now with contingency's constantly going away or atleast having problems paying up...would really that many travel and stay away all those days to run it as a pure bracket race in the long run? I mean..Whats the point?

[Billy Nees]

Alan, the only thing that I am asking for suggestions about in this thread is the instant trigger. Maybe I STILL haven't made myself clear. I have more that a few problems with the AHFS and the auto give backs but all I am trying to concern myself and anybody listening with right now is the "high end" (better words?) trigger. I think that we agree (imagine that) that any combo that goes -1.40 needs a hit. I think that we can ALSO agree that SOME -1.40 hits need to be reviewed by a knowledgable person or board of people (Henson). How about if the first -1.40 hit stays at 3.25% as it is right now but the second hit doubles it to 6.5%? Now that is a simple enough change to get NHRA to go along with if enough of us can agree to it.
In regards to your 425/427 and 255/350, I've always had the thought that when you give a combo to a lot of smart people it is going to get beat up. The 255/350 has had the snot beat out of it because it has been under a microscope for years. Heck, in the 80s Oldsmobile gave a bunch of real smart guys new Oldsmobiles and even the 307 (in stock) got beat up. NHRA recently gave it back HP and it's still not a great combo mainly (in my opinion) because most of the smart guys moved on. Right now both of the 375/396s, any 305s, the LT-1s and LS-1s are getting "smarted up".
Just wait until the new CJs and the Challengers get in the hands of more that 1 or 2 "smart guys". That is going to be when you will see why I am so concerned about the "high end" trigger. I don't want to wait 15 years for those combos to get in line.
Jimi, I hope that your Dad is doing well. I really miss you guys (but you're still a snot nosed kid!). I do enjoy bracket racing my stuff whenever I can (I was at the Beav yesterday) but I don't want to do it at NHRA events (ya snot nosed kid).
And Captain Jack, "The AHFS will NEVER work" (your words)! Well it seems to work pretty well for you. AHFS (automatic help for slugs) gave you back 15 HP as I recall. It seems to have made your combo work. And as you're the only one running your combo you can pretty much control your own destiny. I just thought that I should bring that to your attention.

[Robert Swartz]

Originally Posted by jimi

as for bracket racing get off your high horse and this goes out to all stock super stock racers "WE ALL ARE BRACKET RACERS", every one needs to go to your local tack and look at bracket cars today there is no cheap cars anymore, to think week in week out bracket guys are cheap is an insult to all of them! i do plenty of work on those cars and engines and they spend five times as much as us s/ss dicks! so dont try to minimize bracket racing it is what it has been for 40 years in s/ss and i think it is time for some kind of overhaul.

p.s. you do bracket race all the time,

There is alot of truth in this statement. Honestly, there are no cheap race cars, period. There are many that may not fit our paradigm of what we believe a race car should look like. Then again, who looks at a Neon, a 66 Plymouth wagon or a Cadillac, does that just scream race car, LOL! Only to those of us that enjoy "Stock" racing.

I think the real dilemma here. If you use the 1.40 under to factor a given combination. Granted, say one person builds this car and it's a killer. IF it's a one off combination, that's not really an issue, other than someone else might try to put one together and it may not come close to duplicating the time. On the other hand, how does this equate to older established combinations, where there are potentially dozens of cars. All running at different levels of the index. You factor that combination, you take care of the fast cars but you also just legislated a number of people out the class or force them to join the ranks of the high dollar money racers to bring their combo in line.

If a car bombs the index, suggestions have been, add weight, move THAT car up a class, keep the dial ins, go back to running off national records. Maybe this is another thought, use the index to determine qualifyiing, if class is not contested. If class is contested," it's heads up, run what brung, hope you brung enough", hate using the Pinks line but it fits. Then run the eliminator off the national record, you kill the record, automatic teardown for legality, you own a new record as well as a Wally. This would force everyone to run their combos all out. You find out who's got a strong car and who doesn't real fast.

As many have said, you'll never get rid of the sandbaggers or the soft combinations.

[art leong]

Billy it seems to me if you drop the bar lower people will adjust accordingly. The only way to stop (some of) the sandbagging is to use the 1,000' clocks. and the problem there is different cars, engine combo's etc. with the same (honest) ET have different 1000' times. Cars are set up for the quarter mile.
Maybe take away the instant thing and review the cars more often.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by jimi

this is not i am telling you what to do but, the last few years i have been fishing and hunting and playing football baseball working taking care of my dad you all know life priorities,try it some time and your perspective and everyones perspective on class racing will change! for me to do it like i used to 10 to 12 nhra races a year with my present mind set toward nhra things would need to change, i still have that fire inside me that wants to do nothing but dragrace but nhra "enhanced" me in 2002 and it changed me forever, as for bracket racing get off your high horse and this goes out to all stock super stock racers "WE ALL ARE BRACKET RACERS", every one needs to go to your local tack and look at bracket cars today there is no cheap cars anymore, to think week in week out bracket guys are cheap is an insult to all of them! i do plenty of work on those cars and engines and they spend five times as much as us s/ss dicks! so dont try to minimize bracket racing it is what it has been for 40 years in s/ss and i think it is time for some kind of overhaul.

p.s. you do bracket race all the time,

p.s.s in 22 years of racing my stocker i have had exactly 2 heads up runs during eliminations .........

No, we do not bracket race all the time.

I used to bracket race. I grew to hate it, and quit. It only costs a fortune to go fast and win if you want it to.

We've had several heads up races, win, lose, or draw, they were fun, and the best part of all of it. No heads up on Sunday is the absolute worst idea possible.

You CAN spend as much as you WANT on anything. I've built plenty of good race winning bracket engines for a lot less than a really good competitive Stock Eliminator engine in a hotly contested class, with a fairly popular combination.

To run AA, A, B, or C, you MUST have a serious piece, that will cost you plenty, regardless of make. Unless you intend to go home every time you get a heads up race. I can build a big block Chevy bracket engine that will run 9 flat in a 2500 pound car for 1/2 what you can build one that will run 1.1 under in Stock.

Oh, and I hunt and fish fairly regularly. Went fishing last Sunday, can't go today due to other commitments. Hunted every weekend in February but one.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Alan, the only thing that I am asking for suggestions about in this thread is the instant trigger. Maybe I STILL haven't made myself clear. I have more that a few problems with the AHFS and the auto give backs but all I am trying to concern myself and anybody listening with right now is the "high end" (better words?) trigger. I think that we agree (imagine that) that any combo that goes -1.40 needs a hit. I think that we can ALSO agree that SOME -1.40 hits need to be reviewed by a knowledgable person or board of people (Henson). How about if the first -1.40 hit stays at 3.25% as it is right now but the second hit doubles it to 6.5%? Now that is a simple enough change to get NHRA to go along with if enough of us can agree to it.
In regards to your 425/427 and 255/350, I've always had the thought that when you give a combo to a lot of smart people it is going to get beat up. The 255/350 has had the snot beat out of it because it has been under a microscope for years. Heck, in the 80s Oldsmobile gave a bunch of real smart guys new Oldsmobiles and even the 307 (in stock) got beat up. NHRA recently gave it back HP and it's still not a great combo mainly (in my opinion) because most of the smart guys moved on. Right now both of the 375/396s, any 305s, the LT-1s and LS-1s are getting "smarted up".
Just wait until the new CJs and the Challengers get in the hands of more that 1 or 2 "smart guys". That is going to be when you will see why I am so concerned about the "high end" trigger. I don't want to wait 15 years for those combos to get in line.
Jimi, I hope that your Dad is doing well. I really miss you guys (but you're still a snot nosed kid!). I do enjoy bracket racing my stuff whenever I can (I was at the Beav yesterday) but I don't want to do it at NHRA events (ya snot nosed kid).
And Captain Jack, "The AHFS will NEVER work" (your words)! Well it seems to work pretty well for you. AHFS (automatic help for slugs) gave you back 15 HP as I recall. It seems to have made your combo work. And as you're the only one running your combo you can pretty much control your own destiny. I just thought that I should bring that to your attention.

Again Billy, if you lower the trigger, it will hit the common and popular cars FIRST. If you are worried about Cobra Jets and Challengers, count them up, and see how many there are. Do they outnumber LT-1 and LS-1 cars? No. Do they outnumber 396 and 427 cars? No. Do they outnumber early Hemi and 440 cars? No. Do they outnumber the Ford big block cars? Not right now. So who would get hit first? Who slows down first, because they get hit? Keep slowing them down and who is there with enough power to make the other cars have to run for a win?

Simple math and logic here Billy. It takes a 1.2 under car or better to have any chance to make a 1.4 under or better car have to show any of its potential. Hit the 1.2 under car and it becomes a 1 under car, then who will make the 1.4 or better under car run? Lower the trigger to 1.2 under and the guy with the 1.2 under car won't even run 1.2 under 90% of the time or better, in order to avoid getting hit.

Lower the trigger and math says that odds are you hit 9 out of 10 cars running 1.3 under or less before you hit the few 1.4+ under cars you're after. Hit the ones you're not after once and the ones you are after will never have to show their hand.

The law of averages is against your idea of lowering the trigger to get a few fast cars slowed down.

[Ron Ortiz]

I truly do not have an agenda, I like drag racing. I hate seeing cars dump at the top end in a so called performance class like Stock. I hate seeing the .90 class cars die on the line and then come roaring back to life. From a spectators point of view these types of racing is killing the sport.

My solution is simple and would be very effective.

1) Eliminate the trigger and let them run out the back door
2) Record ALL runs and their incrimental times.
3) Have class eliminations at every race.
4) Re-evaluate all data after one year.
5) Reset the AHFS from acquired data.

You will be kind of back at square one, but with all the combos more in line of their true HP rating. Also after running the cars all out for a year, no one will want to come back to the "old way."

If someone wants to sand bag, they will get caught up with it when an opponent pushes them. Then their cover will be blown by the incrimental times.

This is just my opinion as a spectator and true drag racer.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA

[Alan Roehrich]

Ron,
People have been dumping and sandbagging for years. All they'd have to do to defeat your idea is do it for one more year. And if they knew they'd be re-evaluated in a year, they'd be fools not to sandbag and dump for one more year.

[Ron Ortiz]

I understand what you are saying Alan, but with class at every race and the recording of all runs and their incrimental times, their true performance will come out in a year. To sandbag correctly under this format one would have to do it from the starting line to the finish line or the incriments will get them.

Either that or NHRA needs to make all Stock Eliminator a CIC race.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA entertainment from the sidelines