to all 85-92 efi racers

[bill dedman]

Dwight,

I realize that most of what you say is true; that it isn't a perfect workd, and parity is never going to exist with the huge variety of cars that populate the Stocker ranks. What I see here is a situation that MAYBE could be made better through boost monitoring.

Here's how it could work, since you asked ("How are tech people going monitor turbo boost even with a gauge? F1 cars have computer controlled electronic waste gates that vary the boost and are adjustable from the driver's seat. Do you really think it could be controlled?")

The Tech department would have to find out from the manufacrurers, what the maximum boost level; was when the engine was dyno'd for its original "advertised" horsepower rating. That number, let's say, ten pounds, goes into a book that is included with the other information that is kept at the scales, along with the car's shipping weight.

When the turbo car comes in for his fuel check and to be weighed after a run, the Tech looks at the NHRA-supplied telltale boost gauge to read the number the telltale needle has stoppef at. If it's over ten pounds, the car is bounced, just like if it were too light, or had fuel that wouldn't pass.

That's all there is to it.

Maybe this is unworkable from the standpoint that some of the modiofications (LEGAL ones) might cause the boost to rise above the factory figure. I am not advocating that racers who run turbo cars should be restricted from such modifications, but, when I started advocating this idea, I was under the impression that boost levels would NOT rise with camshaft, exhaust, etc. modifications. Jeff Lee agreed with me.

Jim Wahl says different.

If he's right (and, he well may be), I would no longer advocate monitoring boost levels, because I wouldn't want to restrict otherwise legal modifications on turbo cars just because it raised the boost level beyond the original figure.

If he's wrong, I think that the simplicity of this system could actually work. It would relieve the Techs at check-in time of having to be experts in the field of identifying turbo equipment on cars that they were probably not equipped to tech. They wouldn't have to know much at all, if the boost levels are going to be minitored, anyway.

But, as yu have said, NHRA has no interest in parity, even though they will toss a car for a valve that is several thousandths of an inch too small or too large. Boost is just another way of emulating a better-breathing engine.

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that the CONSISTENCY with which this anomaly occurs (turbo cars out-qualifying a huge field of normally aspirated cars at national events) doesn't seem to be going away. Maybe it just doean't matter.... There just doesn't seem to be any rational reason for it to be that way, so I thought maybe it could be "fixed."

Perhaps not.

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject; I do appreciete them!

[Jim Wahl]

First, thank you Dwight. I stand on everything I wrote, even if Bill only wants to acknowledge the information and questions he chooses to. Referring to me as "Jum" Wahl only goes to show how mature Bill can be. I guess Bill needs to go to breakfast with his GN turbo buddies more often so they can explain to him how turbos work. If Bill was a class racer and owned a rule book he would know that adjusting boost to allow for weather conditions is perfectly legal.

To tell you the truth I really did not know that Bill was not a class racer. If I had known that to begin with I never would have given him the satisfaction of answering his totally skewed self serving numbers and thoughts. Bill needs to go road racing where things apparently are much simpler and easier to understand. Bill is purely and clearly turbophobe. He hates turbos but surrounds himself with "friends" who have them. He wishes his car had a turbo.Love / hate / fear thing? I don't know, I will leave the diagnosis up to the readers. I call it "turbophobia".

Last, I would like to apologize to my fellow racers for hijacking this thread, which has a good amount of merit on it's own, with this ridicules waste of time between Bill and I. I am now finished with it. Dr.James Wahl Ph.D, discoverer and expert on turbophobia.

[John Kelley]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

. Referring to me as "Jum" Wahl only goes to show how mature Bill can be.

Believe me...Bill's TYPO wasn't deliberate and has nothing to do with maturity.......

[Dwight Southerland]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Dwight,

the Tech looks at the NHRA-supplied telltale boost gauge

Yeah, right. Like NHRA is going to supply something like that . . .

[bill dedman]

Jim Wahl wrote: "I stand on everything I wrote, even if Bill only wants to acknowledge the information and questions he chooses to.

There were no "questions, " only one: "Why have two or three percent of the cars (turbo cars) nailed down over fifteeen percent of the #1 qualifying slots at national events in the last four years?"

That's a simple, straightforward question. Don't try to make it more complicated than it is.... please.


Jim wrote, "Referring to me as "Jum" Wahl only goes to show how mature Bill can be."
Au contraire, mon ami, it just shows what a lousy typist/proofreader I am. I apologize for the typo in your name; it was unintentional, I assure you.



Jim wrote, " I guess Bill needs to go to breakfast with his GN turbo buddies more often so they can explain to him how turbos work. If Bill was a class racer and owned a rule book he would know that adjusting boost to allow for weather conditions is perfectly legal."

Those guys all tell me the same thing: "MORE BOOST INVARIABLY MEANS MORE POWER." That's pretty simple, too. No mystery there...

I went through my 2008 NHRA rulebook, page-by-page, scanning it for information about adjusting boost, as regards the legality of it, and I couldn't find a single word about that. Can you please tell me what page that's on? I must have missed it.

By the way, there is a separete, autonomous, part of this forum for current class racers to post. If I had a car I was unning in a class, I'd have posted this over there. I too, apologize for "hijacking" this thread; I never dreamed it would take this long to make my point.

Jim wrote, "To tell you the truth I really did not know that Bill was not a class racer. If I had known that to begin with I never would have given him the satisfaction of answering his totally skewed self serving numbers and thoughts."

I haven't had much in the way of satisfaction, because I can't seem to convince you that there is any kind of a problem, here. Maybe it's 'cause you own one of the cars that are of the type that create that problem. I have no such conflict of interest. I don't know what part of my reporting of the turbo cars that qualified #1 could be characterized as "skewed", since I reported all of the races that were in the 4-year time frame that was pertinent to the subject, which was "NATIONAL EVENT QUALIFYING." Points races are not a problem and were never a part of this discussion because of their impertinence.

Jim also wrote, "Bill needs to go road racing where things apparently are much simpler and easier to understand."

Bill's been drag racing since 1955 (no typo), and is much too old to change, now.

Lastly, the good doctor wrote, "Bill is clearly a turbohobe. He hates turbos but surrounds himself with "friends" who have them. He wishes his car had a turbo.Love / hate / fear thing? I don't know, I will leave the diagnosis up to the readers. I call it "turbophobia".

That's it; KILL THE MESSENGER, because by doing so, attention is diverted from the real issue at hand.

I hope you handle your psychology practice better than you do logic. Send the bill to Danny Gracia... It's all his fault, anyway!!!

[bill dedman]

Dwight Southerland wrote, "Yeah, right. Like NHRA is going to supply something like that "

Well, if they didn't, they could require the racer to pay for it. It's not like that would be anything new.
From what I understand, they require the Sportsman racers to pay a $50 "insurance charge" at EVERY NATIONAL EVENT, to cover the cost of insurance for the PROS.... not even Sportsman coverage.
If they have the cajones to require that from everybody, a little coercion of the forced induction Stockers should be easy.

There are only a handful of turbo cars running; how expensive could it be?.

[art leong]

I just read the last few posts. But if nhra should check boost levels.
How about flowing a stock cylinder head and comparing it to the race version. Some of you think its fine to increase airflow in a way it benifits you. But not in a way it helps others.
In the first place a turbo car can and often do have whats called a boost spike. Especially in drag racing. So those boost thingys would be very inaccurate at best.

And I don't have a dog in this hunt. And Bill you don't either.
My car made its first under power trips down the track this weekend.
It went ,999 under And I completely forgot to bolt on a turbo. I must be getting old LOL

[bill dedman]

Art,

You suggested , "How about flowing a stock cylinder head and comparing it to the race version."

I have no problem of any kind with that. Getting NHRA to DO it would be the problem.

Congratulations on your new car's performance. What is it?

[bill dedman]

1664SSJA,

Your comment, "Bill-- Your last two lines were uncalled for, especially after your own "Kill the Messenger" comment."

I'll tell you what is uncalled for: Posting on here using an alias instead of your real name.

Nobody pays any attention to posts from people who haven't the character to sign their own work.

I know I don't...

[art leong]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Art,

You suggested , "How about flowing a stock cylinder head and comparing it to the race version."

I have no problem of any kind with that. Getting NHRA to DO it would be the problem.

Congratulations on your new car's performance. What is it?

A 4 cylinder front wheel drive NEON