65-85 under.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Alan, your last 2 posts are "wise words from a wise man".
The only way that I could even consider an index reduction would be if it DIDN'T include the lower classes. You would have to agree that the "less than hi-performance" combos largely don't respond to or aren't included in many of the "enhancements" that have been given out over the years. Would you consider this for a minute? The L/SA index has been "screwy" (for lack of a better term) forever. Look it up. How about A thru K get -.10 (including the FS classes) and L down (including the FWD classes) get left as is? Or if A/K get -.20 and L down -.10? Would that be enough to keep the fast boys happy?

I have probably already said more than I should, or I am qualified to say. Again, we're parked, maybe for 2-5 more months, maybe for a lot longer, I don't know. I don't know if I'm through with my cancer treatments, I don't know how well or soon I will recover, and I don't know what the future holds, for me, or for my partner. I know what I want to do. God has yet to tell me what I'll get to do.


However, of course I agree, the combinations are all different. Some have gotten gifts, others have not. Almost all will gain from technological advances, some more than others.


The question becomes, do some people with some combinations have the right to hold everyone else back? That's asking a lot. Or, do some people with other combinations have the right to pull everyone else forward? Tough question.


There will always be a disparity. There will always be "the haves and the have nots," whether that be those who have time and money, and those who don't, those who want to work hard and those who want to slack, or those who have a combination with potential and those who don't.


You will, however, never stop progress. Whether it is progress you like and agree with, or progress you hate. It doesn't matter whether you like it, Barry Parker likes it, or I like it, it's going to happen, at best, we can hope to influence the direction. Trying to stop most of the progress will absolutely kill the class. It's already hard to draw a field, and a crowd to watch. Making the racing worse will not help that. We need to make the racing better, and improve the show, whether or not NHRA will promote it. Or the classes eventually die.


Perhaps those with legitimately slow combinations can get some help from NHRA in figuring out a way to more quickly move them to a class that they can compete in, without waiting years, instead of months. The problem there is, the system has been seriously "gamed", and NHRA is understandably reticent.



Those who simply refuse to invest the time, effort, and money to compete, one way or another, will eventually move on. Considering how tough Stock and Super Stock once were, that's how the classes started, and why they were separate from the brackets. It's not a matter of who does or doesn't like whom. It's a matter of the nature of a performance based class, eventually it gets serious about performance, or it dies, whether death is just the end, or a fundamental change in the class. If it ceases to be at least as performance oriented as it is now, or more, enough people absolutely will leave that death, as in the end, will be a certainty. There aren't enough "bracket" type racers to keep the classes alive as they are.



Let's be honest, the classes (Stock and Super Stock) need more competition, more speed, and lower ET's, in order to draw new competitors, and new spectators. We're still not working hard enough to get more class eliminations happening in front of more people, and we're not working hard enough to create more rewards for qualifying, for winning heads up races, etc. Whether or not it benefits any individual directly, it benefits the classes. And we're here literally arguing about whether or not to turn people loose and let them race without crippling their combination. I don't think racers or spectators are going to hang around for 1000' agreed dumps.



We need to step back and realize that some combinations have been rendered obsolete over the years, and they simply got parked, sold, or converted to street cars. we're not talking about combinations that there are tons of, we're talking about combinations that were marginal, and somewhat rare. No matter what, some combinations are going to fall by the wayside. Some people, willing to spend time and money, will save many others.


To put it simply, there's no solution that is going to make everyone happy, or keep everyone in the class. There are only solutions that are best for the class, and best for the majority. They're ALL trade offs. There will always be those who benefit, and those who don't, and some who get the short straw. The best we can hope for is continued survival of the class, and for NHRA to do good things for the class. Can there be compromise? Sure. The question is, is NHRA willing to work that hard on the classes? We may not like the answer.

[B Parker]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Barry, let's say that Santa (NHRA) gives you and all of YOUR little friends (396/375 guys) a "special" present for Christmas. Let's say for the sake of this discussion,a pistol. While all of the rest of us get nothing but the usual socks and underwear. Let's say that you and your little friends are outside "playing" with your "special" presents and a couple of you manage to shoot yourselves in the foot. Is that Santa's fault? Are the rest of us at fault? Should the rest of the good little boys and girls (the rest of us in the Eliminator, you know the ones who got s#!t) be punished for your indiscretions? No, we shouldn't. YOU and your friends (the 396/375 guys) are at fault for shooting yourselves in the foot.
OBTW, YOU choose to run in a class where you have to be concerned about heads-up runs. You can change that.

Let me know if I have to explain this analogy to you so that you'll understand it.

Billy Van Winkle Have you been asleep that last 15 years. You need to go to the competition page and look under NHRA Approved products. There are 80 plus pages of accepted products. Including all types of Blocks Heads and Intakes and cranks just to name a few. Hard to believe Billys isn't it. They Have approved RHS, Dart, and Edelbrock heads. You have to stop just looking at the 396/375HP combo. I've never asked for any of them. And I used to shack my head ever year they would add another one. I wanted like you for them to leave the Stock I grew up with alone. But I finally said it didn't matter what I wanted and maybe just maybe you will realize this is almost the year 2023 and the Stock that we all raced years ago is gone. Lost for good.

I don't need any gifts from Santa for one of my cars to be fast. I paid my dues years ago and learned from testing, testing and did I say testing to find things that have nothing to do with the engine to make the cars I have run fast and any combo that I build will also.

Jim Boudreau is another one that has had one of if not the fastest 396/375 Hp car for the last 20 plus years. Why Billy not because it's a 396/375 Hp car. Anyone that knows Jimmy Knows he makes more runs a year testing than most make running their cars all year. Every car Jimmy has owed be a Super Stock or Stock car has been fast. It has very little to do with the combo.

Rip you also need to get a GM parts book. You will find both the heads and intake I run on my car listed. I can't say the same about a lot of other parts they have allowed cars to run.

Van before I raced my present car I ran a 1970 Corvette in G/SA My first full year with the car it was the fastest car at Indy in G.
But that must have been a Christmas car also. It had an aftermarket block, crank, rods, piston, rings, cam, lifters and rocker arms.

Your right we pick the combo or in this case the combo I run picked me. So you can pick a class that you can go years without running a heads up run. I would prefer not to. The main reason why I have raced in classes that are popular is that's a big part of Stock I enjoy. Having competition in a class that you run.

To each their own but if you race a class that you almost never have to run a heads up run you might as well have a bracket car.

Mr. Winkle as hard as it is for you to accept I hope one day you wake up and embrace the Class that is now called Stock. Yes it's not the Stock of old but to me unless the powers to be screw it up it is still fun to do. With the way the AHFS is today we will have a lot more playing and lot less racing to the finish line.

I'm not one that really wants to see them lower the index's several tenths. But the index's sure could have been lowered a tenth. Thats all they needed to do this year and maybe more would run their cars to the potential the have.

As Alan Reinhart announced at Epping a couple of year Please Dave Mohn please make this a mine shaft race so we can stop all this 1000 ft racing.

By the way it has been 13 years since they have lowered the index's. Even if you only picked your car up .01 the last 13 years between testing better parts or the now approved parts by NHRA you should have picked up at least the tenth. BP

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by 442OLDS

At the St.Louis Divisional in October where 156 cars were trying to get into the top 128,the first 4 cars were L/SA and lower.
What is the point of this proposal?

Well, you've got me on that one! Hit the indexes a second! I'll put something out there that will be OK.

[Frank Castros]

What year and why did the 396/375 replace the 427/425 as the engine of choice in the A/SA '69 Camaro?

[B Parker]

Originally Posted by Frank Castros

What year and why did the 396/375 replace the 427/425 as the engine of choice in the A/SA '69 Camaro?

Frank I still think the 427/425 is a good combo. I ran a 69 Camaro with a 350/255 for several years. Jimmy Marshal would always tell me to put a big block in it and have more fun. He was right in some ways but he forgot to tell me that it would eat a lot more money. I chose the 396/375 Hp because at that time the Aluminum head for the 427 was ten more Hp than the stock steel ones. My back was already not in good shape so lighter was better. Seems most of the guys that run the Aluminum head 427 like to run in AA. BP

[Kirk Morgan]

I like to read posts on this topic. I usually don,t post. When Allen mentioned the index adjustment a few years ago i thought it was time. I just purchased my 390 67 Fairlane post car in 2008. It ran about 4 tenths under the index here in division 4. The next year i freshened the engine and up graded the camshaft, ring and piston package and picked up about 5 tenths. My engine still had the OEM crank and iron heads. If it wasnt for my friend and racing mentor RJ Sledge i would have never got there. So they lower the index 3 tenths so i gained 2 tenths for all my effort. Now with that being said i think a index adjustment may hamper new people to get started in this type of racing if they dont have the funds to buy a top notch car or try to build there own on a budget. I was told from day 1 that this is a expensive sport and that proved to be so. Each year i would try to improve the car and slowly was able to improve performance. Anyway no matter what happens iam still game. Currently building a SSGT.

[B Parker]

Kirk I don't have the information but I would like to see them post all of the new Stock racer that have joined the Class in the last 5 years...I'd be willing to bet most have not built a car from the ground up. And the few that have knew what they were doing and went to a Stock engine builder. The problem with the AHFS the way it is now will put almost all the engine combo's in the pool to get HP at the end of the year. And for those who's car's can't run that fast there are others that may run your combo that can. Take a look at Indy qualifying this year in crap Indy air. The easy fix would have been lowering the index's a tenth. A lot of racers didn't want that. But as they say be careful what you wish for. BP

[Mike McCandless]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Let's be honest, the classes (Stock and Super Stock) need more competition, more speed, and lower ET's, in order to draw new competitors, and new spectators. We're still not working hard enough to get more class eliminations happening in front of more people, and we're not working hard enough to create more rewards for qualifying, for winning heads up races, etc. Whether or not it benefits any individual directly, it benefits the classes. And we're here literally arguing about whether or not to turn people loose and let them race without crippling their combination. I don't think racers or spectators are going to hang around for 1000' agreed dumps.

More speed and lower ET's isn't the key to getting new blood into S/SS. The nature of the class makes it incredibly difficult for an outsider to come in. The class is fueled by multi decade racers or son/daughters of multi decade racers. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, Only the hardest core of racers would jump into the hornets nest, which limits the potential participants. I believe S/SS is the biggest it will be and will only go down in participation over time.

[Kirk Morgan]

I think thats a good question as to how much new blood is coming into the sport. We have seen a few posts on new people and projects. We all know it is usually cheeper to buy a running combination. The truth be known many people dont have that much cash to dole out at once. Iam currently a friend build a car that will be class legal but will have a bracket motor in it to sort out the car and then move to super stock. I think 75% of the racers will not be affected by the new rules.

[Alan Roehrich]

The aluminum head is still a 10HP penalty on the 427/425. We ran it for years. We never had a high dollar set of killer aluminum heads, so I guess that's why I don't care for the combination, although I could put ours together fairly quick, and without breaking the bank. I just don't think it would be fast enough to suit me or be really competitive. I bought my old iron heads back, and I have another pair. They're all going to be checked and flowed. I don't know what we're going to run yet, if we run. I'm thinking our aluminum heads will be better on a 396, which I have a few parts for. If I were running a 69 Camaro myself, I'd be looking at the iron heads on the 427, and a four speed.



Myself, I want to go with a 69 Chevelle. My two favorite Stock eliminator cars ever, are Harry Vineyard's 69 Chevelle, and Kevin Borgstrom's 69 Chevelle Yenko clone. Who knows, maybe I can sell off enough stuff and get lucky.