Black Tuesday? - Page 7

Mike Carr · 12-14-2009, 12:10 PM

While I think most, if not everyone, can agree that the Indexes are soft, I don't know if an across-the-board three tenths is fair either. 9.30 SS/AM is already a fairly stiff Index. So is 9.60 for a SS/AH. Neither class, in normal air (not couting super condition races like Boise, Atco, Dutch Classic, etc) wouldn't even come close to seeing a top 10 qualifying spot. It would take time and effort (maybe and probably too much time and effort on NHRA's part) to analyze all the classes, see which classes have been qualifying near the top the most, and adjust from there. Meaning, for example, take the 10 or whatever classes that, on average, take the majority of the top 10-20 qualifying spots (just as an example, B/SA, C/SA, J/SA, etc), and adjust them three tenths. Maybe adjust some classes .25, some classes .20, etc. The only exception(s) would be one "odd" car in a class. Meaning, if it was me, in a rare, one-of-a-kind combination car that qualifies #1 several times in, say, R/SA, just hit me with HP, as I would not be an indication that R/SA, as a whole class, is soft, if no other R/SA's anywhere qualified in the top 10 at any race. Or, if one class is at the top a lot, but most or all the cars in that class run the same combination (just as an example, 396/375 Camaro in B, 305 GM in K/SA, etc). If all the cars in the top spots, in that "fast" class, are the same engine and few or no other combinations in that class are near the top, adjust that single engine, rather then penalizing the whole class that may have combinations that can not qualify near the top. Again though, it would be a lot of work to do all that. Billy, this might have been where you were going with your "selective Index change".

There are just so many what-if's with adjusting Indexes and triggers, and so many differing opinions (as have been stated already in this thread) on what NHRA will/should do. If you were to lower the Indexes and leave the -1.15 and -1.40 triggers in place, the soft combos can run even more rampant with less fear of getting hit, as what was -1.40 before would be -1.60 under the old Index (if they reduce the Indexes two tenths), and cars can run just as fast, or faster than before with no penalty. The good side is, it could encourage more all-out racing in Class and less sandbagging. If you lower the Indexes and triggers equally (Indexes down two tenths, and triggers to -.95 and -1.20), then you have the same problem as now, sandbagging and manipulating the the AHFS. I'm not one to question or complain about a problem or perceived problem unless I have an opinion or answer on how to fix it, but I don't really see any glaring, obvious fix to this problem, if it is indeed a problem at all, that would be the most fair to the majority of racers.

John Kelley · 12-14-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Don

Mark - That guy doesn't have to wait for the next national event. He could have a hell of a weekend with no heads up runs and win Indy THAT week!

You need to reread the post !! The guy is "ONE SECOND SLOWER THAN THE SLOWEST QUALIFIER"
He does NOT race because he didn't qualify at the US NATIONALS......:-)

Billy Nees · 12-14-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Carr;

I'm not one to question or complain about a problem or perceived problem unless I have an opinion or answer on how to fix it, but I don't really see any glaring, obvious fix to this problem

Buff, I feel that the majority of racers probably feel the same way you do. That being said, then NHRA should either poll all of its racers, leave the program alone, or REALLY shake the cage. All they are doing now is catering to a very few.

Bob Don · 12-14-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kelley

You need to reread the post !! The guy is "ONE SECOND SLOWER THAN THE SLOWEST QUALIFIER"
He does NOT race because he didn't qualify at the US NATIONALS......:-)

John - YOU have to reread the post because Mark had the guy as QUALIFYING last. The last time I looked, if you qualify, you're in!

John Kelley · 12-14-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Don

John - YOU have to reread the post because Mark had the guy as QUALIFYING last. The last time I looked, if you qualify, you're in!

WRONG......I COPIED WHAT MARK WROTE....

"Think about this. A guy can go to Indy and be 180th qualifier (dead last) @ .06 under. He's a full second away from the slowest qualifier."

THEY DON'T QUALIFY 180 CARS...........HE IS A FULL SECOND SLOWER THAN THE SLOWEST QUALIFIER.
HE DID NOT QUALIFY !!!!
ONLY 128 CARS MAKE THE CUT........

X-TECH MAN · 12-14-2009, 02:08 PM

Just a question here.....What ever happened to.....you win class and you got to play.....style of racing? If you lost out in class you went home. End of the qualifying B.S. You had to be BAD and a good driver to win class. Less cars in the eliminator so NHRA could finish the race earlier like they want. NHRA could use the AHFS after each NATIONAL EVENT and by 6 months to a year the HP ratings "should" be where they belong because if you wanted to race in the eliminator you had better not be playing games at 1000 ft. . Not a suggestion.....just a question.
P.S. And EVERY class winner or fast car was torn down for certification before any adjustment from the AHFS was put into effect. To much work for the downsized tech crew I guess so the need for LESS seperate classes would pop up to help ease the work load. There is no easy answer.

Michael Beard · 12-14-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

While I think most, if not everyone, can agree that the Indexes are soft, I don't know if an across-the-board three tenths is fair either.

Ding, ding! You can really see some wacky stuff when you look at something like my DF/S Turismo, which to date has run -.640 under. In IHRA the engine is only rated 2hp different, but they still have all of the "old" NHRA front-drive classes, where it has run -1.040 under in FF/SA. Would it really make sense for there to be .70 difference between sanctions with the same combination? Maybe there are some indexes out there that "need" hit, but in my opinion the problem lies in HP factors. I don't think it makes sense to paint the indexes with a broad brush (or a wide scythe). And for the first guy to ask "Why should FWD be any exception?" I'd say, "Fine, let's see you go to full-pound weight breaks." There's a 654lb. difference between classes for my combo. Does this make sense to anyone?

- Re: Stockers running -.80 under in Super Stock.... so factor those combinations properly! I ran a Stocker in Super Stock in 2008 that happens to be a bloody fast Stocker, and it typically ran -.15 under in SS. Not -.80 under. Refer to the broad brush, above.

- Re: moving indexes even more... .80? Why not whack them 1.40? Then it'll be just like Comp. Congratulations. Or is it only okay to move the indexes just far enough so that a given individual can run under anywhere, and it's only those lazy SOB's that are slower than "that" guy that need to "work harder"?

- As King Ed mentioned earlier, if they whack .30 across the board, you'll have to run what is currently -.80 under just to "earn" a Class trophy on a single, and presumably to set a Record that's currently at Minimum as well.

- Plus anything Toby said.

Dick Butler · 12-14-2009, 02:32 PM

I had an interesting Phone call to straighten out the rule change. We are correct now a car can run further under before getting hit. Further under the OLD index too.
The topic turned to "what about the guy who wants to run who cannot afford an AH car like me( no I cannot and do not have one). What about the guy who wants to or by lack of money HAS TO do his own porting, assembly etc.. ? Shouldnt he be able to enter and race in Stk and SS?
My Question is? Should we be politically correct? Should I bring my street car to an NHRA event and expect the rules to be dumbed down to allow me to compete on Sunday in Eliminator?
My opinion is besides NHRA wanting the entry, I do not agree.
Like all sports there are qualifying criteria to play. I cannot get on the court with Micheal Jordan. I cannot play with Favre next week. Why? I cannot make the cut, physically. You play your sport by making an entry level of competitiveness.either physically, mentally or financially.
It is my opinion Stk and SS are not a Welfare eliminator. Not dumbed down for the masses . Thats why Bracket racing is run most week ends.No criteria to match just drive what you can afford.
.. Work on your stuff and reach a level of competitiveness in our rules to EARN the right to compete. I think if you can do it yourself to run on NHRA Index in Stk and SS more power to you. If not ,you should be proud of what you CAN do skill wise and money wise and accept others can exceed your levels just like I accept Favre and Jordan as above my level of skills and respect them...

Billy Nees · 12-14-2009, 03:37 PM

Dick, just when I was starting to think that you might just be an alright guy, you post something like that! Reread my previous post on this subject please! NHRA has "dumbed" down the eliminator in the past 10 or so years to the point that I feel as if I'm the equivilant of Michael Jordan but when I play I've got to carry the ref on my back! The RULES and their ENFORCEMENT have been "dumbed" down! I've (and racers like me) always "made the cut" and then some! It is not MY fault that other racers want to take the easy way out and ask for replacement and superceded parts or HP back on their stuff to make it easy for them to be competitive!
Just stand back for one minute and look at this from MY side of the fence and you honestly tell me how much the "dumbing" has helped me and racers like me! Then you honestly tell me why I shouldn't be entitled to compete because I'm not "physically, mentally or financially" (your quote) capable!
The "dumbing down" has taken place from the top and you and the people in this sport that think like you will never be so humble as to think that YOU are the ones that want the sport "dumbed down"!

Dick Butler · 12-14-2009, 03:46 PM

Billy, I was definitely not addressing a post you made. No I was not referring to aftermarket parts. I am only addressing the fact that it should take some level of accomplishment to make the cut to get into the eliminations with a car. Some level of performance standard.
Making aftermarket parts legal is another issue entirely. Keeping rules and enforcing them is something I have not even addressed. A weakness. This has been a spiraling problem also...

12-14-2009, 12:10 PM	#61
Mike Carr VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Enon Valley PA Posts: 1,650 Likes: 234 Liked 83 Times in 37 Posts	Re: Black Tuesday? While I think most, if not everyone, can agree that the Indexes are soft, I don't know if an across-the-board three tenths is fair either. 9.30 SS/AM is already a fairly stiff Index. So is 9.60 for a SS/AH. Neither class, in normal air (not couting super condition races like Boise, Atco, Dutch Classic, etc) wouldn't even come close to seeing a top 10 qualifying spot. It would take time and effort (maybe and probably too much time and effort on NHRA's part) to analyze all the classes, see which classes have been qualifying near the top the most, and adjust from there. Meaning, for example, take the 10 or whatever classes that, on average, take the majority of the top 10-20 qualifying spots (just as an example, B/SA, C/SA, J/SA, etc), and adjust them three tenths. Maybe adjust some classes .25, some classes .20, etc. The only exception(s) would be one "odd" car in a class. Meaning, if it was me, in a rare, one-of-a-kind combination car that qualifies #1 several times in, say, R/SA, just hit me with HP, as I would not be an indication that R/SA, as a whole class, is soft, if no other R/SA's anywhere qualified in the top 10 at any race. Or, if one class is at the top a lot, but most or all the cars in that class run the same combination (just as an example, 396/375 Camaro in B, 305 GM in K/SA, etc). If all the cars in the top spots, in that "fast" class, are the same engine and few or no other combinations in that class are near the top, adjust that single engine, rather then penalizing the whole class that may have combinations that can not qualify near the top. Again though, it would be a lot of work to do all that. Billy, this might have been where you were going with your "selective Index change". There are just so many what-if's with adjusting Indexes and triggers, and so many differing opinions (as have been stated already in this thread) on what NHRA will/should do. If you were to lower the Indexes and leave the -1.15 and -1.40 triggers in place, the soft combos can run even more rampant with less fear of getting hit, as what was -1.40 before would be -1.60 under the old Index (if they reduce the Indexes two tenths), and cars can run just as fast, or faster than before with no penalty. The good side is, it could encourage more all-out racing in Class and less sandbagging. If you lower the Indexes and triggers equally (Indexes down two tenths, and triggers to -.95 and -1.20), then you have the same problem as now, sandbagging and manipulating the the AHFS. I'm not one to question or complain about a problem or perceived problem unless I have an opinion or answer on how to fix it, but I don't really see any glaring, obvious fix to this problem, if it is indeed a problem at all, that would be the most fair to the majority of racers. __________________ Mike Carr, Tri-State S/SS Association President Looking for 2015 S/SS Race Sponsors Contact me if interested buffdaddy_1302@hotmail.com (724) 510-5912

12-14-2009, 02:08 PM	#66
X-TECH MAN Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lake Placid, Florida Posts: 3,203 Likes: 1,047 Liked 235 Times in 110 Posts	Re: Black Tuesday? Just a question here.....What ever happened to.....you win class and you got to play.....style of racing? If you lost out in class you went home. End of the qualifying B.S. You had to be BAD and a good driver to win class. Less cars in the eliminator so NHRA could finish the race earlier like they want. NHRA could use the AHFS after each NATIONAL EVENT and by 6 months to a year the HP ratings "should" be where they belong because if you wanted to race in the eliminator you had better not be playing games at 1000 ft. . Not a suggestion.....just a question. P.S. And EVERY class winner or fast car was torn down for certification before any adjustment from the AHFS was put into effect. To much work for the downsized tech crew I guess so the need for LESS seperate classes would pop up to help ease the work load. There is no easy answer. Last edited by X-TECH MAN; 12-14-2009 at 03:53 PM.

12-14-2009, 02:32 PM	#68
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Black Tuesday? I had an interesting Phone call to straighten out the rule change. We are correct now a car can run further under before getting hit. Further under the OLD index too. The topic turned to "what about the guy who wants to run who cannot afford an AH car like me( no I cannot and do not have one). What about the guy who wants to or by lack of money HAS TO do his own porting, assembly etc.. ? Shouldnt he be able to enter and race in Stk and SS? My Question is? Should we be politically correct? Should I bring my street car to an NHRA event and expect the rules to be dumbed down to allow me to compete on Sunday in Eliminator? My opinion is besides NHRA wanting the entry, I do not agree. Like all sports there are qualifying criteria to play. I cannot get on the court with Micheal Jordan. I cannot play with Favre next week. Why? I cannot make the cut, physically. You play your sport by making an entry level of competitiveness.either physically, mentally or financially. It is my opinion Stk and SS are not a Welfare eliminator. Not dumbed down for the masses . Thats why Bracket racing is run most week ends.No criteria to match just drive what you can afford. .. Work on your stuff and reach a level of competitiveness in our rules to EARN the right to compete. I think if you can do it yourself to run on NHRA Index in Stk and SS more power to you. If not ,you should be proud of what you CAN do skill wise and money wise and accept others can exceed your levels just like I accept Favre and Jordan as above my level of skills and respect them...

12-14-2009, 03:37 PM	#69
Billy Nees VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: On a hilltop in Pa. Posts: 4,489 Likes: 3,593 Liked 7,701 Times in 1,734 Posts	Re: Black Tuesday? Dick, just when I was starting to think that you might just be an alright guy, you post something like that! Reread my previous post on this subject please! NHRA has "dumbed" down the eliminator in the past 10 or so years to the point that I feel as if I'm the equivilant of Michael Jordan but when I play I've got to carry the ref on my back! The RULES and their ENFORCEMENT have been "dumbed" down! I've (and racers like me) always "made the cut" and then some! It is not MY fault that other racers want to take the easy way out and ask for replacement and superceded parts or HP back on their stuff to make it easy for them to be competitive! Just stand back for one minute and look at this from MY side of the fence and you honestly tell me how much the "dumbing" has helped me and racers like me! Then you honestly tell me why I shouldn't be entitled to compete because I'm not "physically, mentally or financially" (your quote) capable! The "dumbing down" has taken place from the top and you and the people in this sport that think like you will never be so humble as to think that YOU are the ones that want the sport "dumbed down"! __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS I'm not spending 100K to win 2K

12-14-2009, 03:46 PM	#70
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Black Tuesday? Billy, I was definitely not addressing a post you made. No I was not referring to aftermarket parts. I am only addressing the fact that it should take some level of accomplishment to make the cut to get into the eliminations with a car. Some level of performance standard. Making aftermarket parts legal is another issue entirely. Keeping rules and enforcing them is something I have not even addressed. A weakness. This has been a spiraling problem also...