Pontiacs - Page 6

john corcoran jr · 09-06-2021, 12:54 AM

A few things to think about if building a GT car. The first would be the cost of the core car and parts availability.. The cheapest would be the 79-81 Birds. Parts are readily available for 67-81 cars. 82 to 92 cars require more work to find parts and cost more but you can find aluminum hoods and front bumper bars.

Aerodynamics play a part in this. In GT you would be likely running up a against a jellybean car like a Cobalt or a Sunfire like Don Kennedy's during class eliminations. Sorry DK but your Sunfire doesn't have the cool factor that your last Firebird had. I have been told that the 91-92 Birds were the most aerodynamic cars Pontiac ever sold. 2nd gen Birds were GM's first computer designed car with at least thoughts about aero.

Body and engine fitment should be looked at. Pontiac had to redesign its air cleaner housings and intake manifolds because of the low hood line of the 2nd gen cars. Do you avoid a shaker hood or jack the carb on up in there? A Qjet and a Victor intake will fit under the hood of an 82-92 car. If you ever changed spark plugs on a 67-81 Pontiac, you would be amazed at how easy it is on a 82-92. In the 1980's people complained about the increased cost of chassis work on an 82-92 but now consider on a gen 2 car will you have to replace all the sheetmetal from the spring pockets back while moving in the framerails? I wouldn't even think about doing a 4th gen car even though I know some have been done. A more interesting choice would be a modern GTO with traditional Pontiac power. Good aero, was built with a Chevy v8 and donor cars are out there. Did you know if you put a 6x 400 with a manual trans in, the class designation is GT/O.

oldskool · 09-06-2021, 12:05 PM

"... A more interesting choice would be a modern GTO with traditional Pontiac power. Good aero...and donor cars are out there."

Now there's an Idea I hadn't thought of. Anybody seen or heard of a Pontiac powered GT car, using a late model GTO body ?

I like it !

Mark Yacavone · 09-06-2021, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

"... A more interesting choice would be a modern GTO with traditional Pontiac power. Good aero...and donor cars are out there."

Now there's an Idea I hadn't thought of. Anybody seen or heard of a Pontiac powered GT car, using a late model GTO body ?

I like it !

No, and the wheelbase is quite long, by comparison.

oldskool · 09-06-2021, 01:09 PM

From a quick Google search, looks like it's shorter than the earlier GTO's, but longer than Birds.

So, is that a bad thing ?

I mean, is it a "shorter is better" deal ?

Took a look at the GM GT cars on the Indy Q-list. Looks like most are Cobalts, Cavaliers, & 3rd gen F-bodies.

There were a couple of late GTO Stockers there. They were both running in the 10's, with 9" slicks. So, with a '77 Pontiac 350 engine, there shouldn't be any problem running in GT, with a Stocker suspension set-up .

Looked up some prices. There are some higher mileage cars for around $10k. This 1st one is the cleanest lookin one I've found that is well under $10k. It's $8,599 (OBO). So, there should be some decent race car candidates out there for $5k or less.

https://classiccars.com/listings/vie...-florida-33317

$7k

https://www.carsforsale.com/vehicle/details/77303073

This one is $6490, with a bad auto trans.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20359441260...=&toolid=10050

How 'bout a '74 ? If you have to start from scratch, starting with one of these or a 2nd gen that came with a Pontiac engine might save a little work & money.

https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...ck.J1ZZ1O14h0Q

https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...r.1is1oEh18i1i

https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...iles.0185HXyNU

https://automotive-classifieds.com/d...premium-trovit

NSSGTO · 09-06-2021, 07:30 PM

I have considered building a late model GTO with a Pontiac Power Plant for a few years. The issue is the independent rear end. To get one of these to handle alot of power it will take some serious $$$$. Prices I had quote to do the cage and convert to either a 12 bolt or 9" came in around $7500. So you would have around $25K in just the roller.

oldskool · 09-06-2021, 10:35 PM

For you guys who won't race a GT car unless you can run more than a half sec under, you can quit reading this post now.

When I was racing, I never had enuff money to go as fast as I wanted to go, either in Stock or bracket. But, in bracket racing, we learned that you don't have to go quick, to win. You have cut consistently good lights & run consistent ET's.

Most Stock/SS racers really HATE it when you relate their chosen form of racing to bracket racing, in ANY way. BUT, IF your car is legal & can run it's index or a little quicker, then each round that is NOT a same-class heads-up race uses bracket race rules.

Since this IS true, no matter how many Class racers don't like it, any car that is legal & can run it's index can win any race, in which they don't have a heads-up run.

So, with this in mind, IF a guy really wants a GT car, but don't have the funds to build a high dollar car, he could run the '77 Pontiac 350 engine & get by with enuff car to run mid 11's.

That means that he would not need any more traction than a high 10 sec or low 11 sec Stocker would need. To me, that means that a decent low 11 sec Stock roller would be enuff car to run GT, with the 350P engine.

Or, if you had to, or wanted to, build from scratch, you wouldn't need any trick suspension. The basic leaf springs with Cal-Trac bars should work just fine. It appears to be working for Larry Maxwell, down into the 10.80's.

The '77 350, running in the lowest GT class, would require a min weight of 3500 + 170 driver weight. The '79 Bird is listed at just under 3500 with both a 403/auto & a 400/4-speed. So, one of these late 2nd gens should work great, as a GT/QA car, with an 11.75 index.

Brad Koivisto runs a half sec quicker than that easily, & has run some high tens, with his '74 350 GTO Stocker. IIRC, Mike Morgan has run below 10.50, with his '77 350 powered Bird

So, I'm thinkin that a real mild '77 SS 350 should easily run mid 11's, or slightly above, certainly quicker than 11.75.

Ya'll check my calculations. I could easily be wrong. How does this combo look for a low budget GT car ?

For those who don't think it would work, lets hear your recipe for a from-scratch low budget GT car.

Obviously, IF you can find a suitable & cheap roller that needs little, other than an engine & trans, then that might be cheaper, and a LOT less work, than building from scratch.

john corcoran jr · 09-07-2021, 12:55 AM

The only reason I ever thought of doing a late model GTO was a visit to my favorite chassis shop and he was parting one out. He used the eng/trans for a customer car and wanted the rear end for one of his projects. He told me it would be about 20k to convert to SS with 8.50 cage, 4 link, rear end, and fuel cell. I didn't go ahead on the project because I thought I should finish off another project instead. He still has the car but it needs more parts now. Needs front fascia, grille, one fender, rear fascia and rh quarter panel repair if anyone is interested.
Remember that when building a Pontiac motor, it will cost you the same regardless of engine size. My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors. Yes I know the 428 with the Edelbrock heads has an even better hp rating but when did you last see a set of those heads for sale?

oldskool · 09-07-2021, 02:47 PM

"...My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors..."

That's an interesting thought. I have eliminated all round port iron head engines, due to availability & cost. So, that leaves the '73-'74 D-port 455, as probably the best choice. Rated @ 310hp in GT/Auto.

They've been proven good in 10 sec Stockers. But right now, I can't think of a current car running one, in SS. Should easily run the index in a car that can hook it up. Now, as to how much power one can make, in SS form, I don't know.

When comparing them to 400's, I'd say they are a better choice over the '74 & '77-'78 400's, which are rated @ 290hp. Advantage of those '77-'78 400's is the common 6X head. Cores should be cheaper than any of the other good Pontiac heads.

Wilbert Thornton runs a '74 400 SS Bird. Jack Good now owns the '78 400 SS Bird that Ken Shawver once owned. The '74 & '77-'78 400's have been used by several GT racers.

The lowest rating for one of the early high compression 400's looks to be a '69 350hp GTO engine. It shows the same 310hp as the 455 we're talkin about. At the same hp rating, I'll choose the extra torque of the lower compression 455. Will require less rpm.

Art Peterson has the only '69 GTO SS car I know of running the '69 D-port 400 engine. Don't think it's an all-out car. Nice paint, but older technology. Roy, Mike, & Marty McKinney have ran a similar engine in their '68 Bird, for many years.

Stan Weiss · 09-07-2021, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors..."

That's an interesting thought. I have eliminated all round port iron head engines, due to availability & cost. So, that leaves the '73-'74 D-port 455. Rated @ 310hp in GT/Auto.

They've been proven good in 10 sec Stockers. But right now, I can't think of a current car running one, in SS. Should easily run the index in a car that can hook it up. Now, as to how much power one can make, in SS form, I don't know.

When comparing them to 400's, I'd say they are a better choice over the '74 & '77-'78 400's, which are rated @ 290hp. Advantage of those '77-'78 400's is the common 6X head. Cores should be cheaper than any of the other good Pontiac heads.

Wilbert Thornton runs a '74 400 SS Bird. Jack Good now owns the '78 400 SS Bird that Ken Shawver once owned. The '74 & '77-'78 400's have been used by several GT racers.

The lowest rating for one of the early high compression 400's looks to be a '69 350hp GTO engine. It shows the same 310hp as the 455 we're talkin about. At the same hp rating, I'll choose the extra torque of the lower compression 455. Will require less rpm.

Art Peterson has the only '69 GTO SS car I know of running the '69 D-port 400 engine. Don't think it's an all-out car. Nice paint, but older technology. Roy, Mike, & Marty McKinney have ran a similar engine in their '68 Bird, for many years.

At most Nation events how far under their Index does one have to run to qualify?

Stan

Billy Nees · 09-07-2021, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

At most Nation events how far under their Index does one have to run to qualify?

Stan

At MOST Natl. Events? You don't.

09-06-2021, 12:54 AM	#51
john corcoran jr Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: darien, il Posts: 53 Likes: 0 Liked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Re: Pontiacs A few things to think about if building a GT car. The first would be the cost of the core car and parts availability.. The cheapest would be the 79-81 Birds. Parts are readily available for 67-81 cars. 82 to 92 cars require more work to find parts and cost more but you can find aluminum hoods and front bumper bars. Aerodynamics play a part in this. In GT you would be likely running up a against a jellybean car like a Cobalt or a Sunfire like Don Kennedy's during class eliminations. Sorry DK but your Sunfire doesn't have the cool factor that your last Firebird had. I have been told that the 91-92 Birds were the most aerodynamic cars Pontiac ever sold. 2nd gen Birds were GM's first computer designed car with at least thoughts about aero. Body and engine fitment should be looked at. Pontiac had to redesign its air cleaner housings and intake manifolds because of the low hood line of the 2nd gen cars. Do you avoid a shaker hood or jack the carb on up in there? A Qjet and a Victor intake will fit under the hood of an 82-92 car. If you ever changed spark plugs on a 67-81 Pontiac, you would be amazed at how easy it is on a 82-92. In the 1980's people complained about the increased cost of chassis work on an 82-92 but now consider on a gen 2 car will you have to replace all the sheetmetal from the spring pockets back while moving in the framerails? I wouldn't even think about doing a 4th gen car even though I know some have been done. A more interesting choice would be a modern GTO with traditional Pontiac power. Good aero, was built with a Chevy v8 and donor cars are out there. Did you know if you put a 6x 400 with a manual trans in, the class designation is GT/O.

09-06-2021, 12:05 PM	#52
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Pontiacs "... A more interesting choice would be a modern GTO with traditional Pontiac power. Good aero...and donor cars are out there." Now there's an Idea I hadn't thought of. Anybody seen or heard of a Pontiac powered GT car, using a late model GTO body ? I like it ! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 09-06-2021 at 12:16 PM.

09-06-2021, 01:09 PM	#54
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Pontiacs From a quick Google search, looks like it's shorter than the earlier GTO's, but longer than Birds. So, is that a bad thing ? I mean, is it a "shorter is better" deal ? Took a look at the GM GT cars on the Indy Q-list. Looks like most are Cobalts, Cavaliers, & 3rd gen F-bodies. There were a couple of late GTO Stockers there. They were both running in the 10's, with 9" slicks. So, with a '77 Pontiac 350 engine, there shouldn't be any problem running in GT, with a Stocker suspension set-up . Looked up some prices. There are some higher mileage cars for around $10k. This 1st one is the cleanest lookin one I've found that is well under $10k. It's $8,599 (OBO). So, there should be some decent race car candidates out there for $5k or less. https://classiccars.com/listings/vie...-florida-33317 $7k https://www.carsforsale.com/vehicle/details/77303073 This one is $6490, with a bad auto trans. https://www.ebay.com/itm/20359441260...=&toolid=10050 How 'bout a '74 ? If you have to start from scratch, starting with one of these or a 2nd gen that came with a Pontiac engine might save a little work & money. https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...ck.J1ZZ1O14h0Q https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...r.1is1oEh18i1i https://cars.trovit.com/listing/1974...iles.0185HXyNU https://automotive-classifieds.com/d...premium-trovit Last edited by oldskool; 09-06-2021 at 02:48 PM.

09-06-2021, 07:30 PM	#55
NSSGTO Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 53 Likes: 9 Liked 24 Times in 17 Posts	Re: Pontiacs I have considered building a late model GTO with a Pontiac Power Plant for a few years. The issue is the independent rear end. To get one of these to handle alot of power it will take some serious $$$$. Prices I had quote to do the cage and convert to either a 12 bolt or 9" came in around $7500. So you would have around $25K in just the roller.

09-06-2021, 10:35 PM	#56
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Pontiacs For you guys who won't race a GT car unless you can run more than a half sec under, you can quit reading this post now. When I was racing, I never had enuff money to go as fast as I wanted to go, either in Stock or bracket. But, in bracket racing, we learned that you don't have to go quick, to win. You have cut consistently good lights & run consistent ET's. Most Stock/SS racers really HATE it when you relate their chosen form of racing to bracket racing, in ANY way. BUT, IF your car is legal & can run it's index or a little quicker, then each round that is NOT a same-class heads-up race uses bracket race rules. Since this IS true, no matter how many Class racers don't like it, any car that is legal & can run it's index can win any race, in which they don't have a heads-up run. So, with this in mind, IF a guy really wants a GT car, but don't have the funds to build a high dollar car, he could run the '77 Pontiac 350 engine & get by with enuff car to run mid 11's. That means that he would not need any more traction than a high 10 sec or low 11 sec Stocker would need. To me, that means that a decent low 11 sec Stock roller would be enuff car to run GT, with the 350P engine. Or, if you had to, or wanted to, build from scratch, you wouldn't need any trick suspension. The basic leaf springs with Cal-Trac bars should work just fine. It appears to be working for Larry Maxwell, down into the 10.80's. The '77 350, running in the lowest GT class, would require a min weight of 3500 + 170 driver weight. The '79 Bird is listed at just under 3500 with both a 403/auto & a 400/4-speed. So, one of these late 2nd gens should work great, as a GT/QA car, with an 11.75 index. Brad Koivisto runs a half sec quicker than that easily, & has run some high tens, with his '74 350 GTO Stocker. IIRC, Mike Morgan has run below 10.50, with his '77 350 powered Bird So, I'm thinkin that a real mild '77 SS 350 should easily run mid 11's, or slightly above, certainly quicker than 11.75. Ya'll check my calculations. I could easily be wrong. How does this combo look for a low budget GT car ? For those who don't think it would work, lets hear your recipe for a from-scratch low budget GT car. Obviously, IF you can find a suitable & cheap roller that needs little, other than an engine & trans, then that might be cheaper, and a LOT less work, than building from scratch. Last edited by oldskool; 09-06-2021 at 10:41 PM.

09-07-2021, 12:55 AM	#57
john corcoran jr Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: darien, il Posts: 53 Likes: 0 Liked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Re: Pontiacs The only reason I ever thought of doing a late model GTO was a visit to my favorite chassis shop and he was parting one out. He used the eng/trans for a customer car and wanted the rear end for one of his projects. He told me it would be about 20k to convert to SS with 8.50 cage, 4 link, rear end, and fuel cell. I didn't go ahead on the project because I thought I should finish off another project instead. He still has the car but it needs more parts now. Needs front fascia, grille, one fender, rear fascia and rh quarter panel repair if anyone is interested. Remember that when building a Pontiac motor, it will cost you the same regardless of engine size. My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors. Yes I know the 428 with the Edelbrock heads has an even better hp rating but when did you last see a set of those heads for sale?

09-07-2021, 02:47 PM	#58
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Pontiacs "...My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors..." That's an interesting thought. I have eliminated all round port iron head engines, due to availability & cost. So, that leaves the '73-'74 D-port 455, as probably the best choice. Rated @ 310hp in GT/Auto. They've been proven good in 10 sec Stockers. But right now, I can't think of a current car running one, in SS. Should easily run the index in a car that can hook it up. Now, as to how much power one can make, in SS form, I don't know. When comparing them to 400's, I'd say they are a better choice over the '74 & '77-'78 400's, which are rated @ 290hp. Advantage of those '77-'78 400's is the common 6X head. Cores should be cheaper than any of the other good Pontiac heads. Wilbert Thornton runs a '74 400 SS Bird. Jack Good now owns the '78 400 SS Bird that Ken Shawver once owned. The '74 & '77-'78 400's have been used by several GT racers. The lowest rating for one of the early high compression 400's looks to be a '69 350hp GTO engine. It shows the same 310hp as the 455 we're talkin about. At the same hp rating, I'll choose the extra torque of the lower compression 455. Will require less rpm. Art Peterson has the only '69 GTO SS car I know of running the '69 D-port 400 engine. Don't think it's an all-out car. Nice paint, but older technology. Roy, Mike, & Marty McKinney have ran a similar engine in their '68 Bird, for many years. Last edited by oldskool; 09-07-2021 at 06:46 PM.