Update E-F/SA Bird Build...

[oldskool]

Hi Brent. I'm not new by any means, but new to the site. Just joined today. But I've been reading some stuff on here for a while. Your Bird build thread caught my eye, cause we use to run a '68 E/SA. But back then, they were about 2 seconds slower than the top cars are today.

I'm trying to piece together what has changed to make these cars so much quicker now. I've seen some of the rule changes, like forged rods and pistons.

And the cams that are allowed now are really radical compared to the Lunati we ran. I see from your build that you are running a converter with over 4000 stall. With our cam a 3000 was plenty.

Anyhow I have a lot of questions about your build and the current rules and such. Since racing season is over, I was hoping you may have time to share some info with me.

But I realize that most guys are busy and some don't like to share with strangers. So, if you'd rather not do it, I understand completely and have no hard feelings.

If you'd rather not, then could you possibly recommend one or more Pontiac guys on here that might be willing to share some Stock class info with me. I don't need any super secret stuff, just the basics it takes to get a Pontiac Stocker to run just barely under it's index.

Hey, thanks for listening. And congrats on your progress so far.

[brent flynn]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Hi Brent. I'm not new by any means, but new to the site. Just joined today. But I've been reading some stuff on here for a while. Your Bird build thread caught my eye, cause we use to run a '68 E/SA. But back then, they were about 2 seconds slower than the top cars are today.

I'm trying to piece together what has changed to make these cars so much quicker now. I've seen some of the rule changes, like forged rods and pistons.

And the cams that are allowed now are really radical compared to the Lunati we ran. I see from your build that you are running a converter with over 4000 stall. With our cam a 3000 was plenty.

Anyhow I have a lot of questions about your build and the current rules and such. Since racing season is over, I was hoping you may have time to share some info with me.

But I realize that most guys are busy and some don't like to share with strangers. So, if you'd rather not do it, I understand completely and have no hard feelings.

If you'd rather not, then could you possibly recommend one or more Pontiac guys on here that might be willing to share some Stock class info with me. I don't need any super secret stuff, just the basics it takes to get a Pontiac Stocker to run just barely under it's index.

Hey, thanks for listening. And congrats on your progress so far.

My build is pretty basic, with some attention paid to detail... if it werent, there is no way that the stuff that i have would run under the index at all...hehe

I dont mind posting what i have, since im not worried at all about class runoff's or heads up races. I wont see a National event, unless it would be Norwalk. Indy is out of the question, since im not running atleast .9 under. If anything, itll show people that you dont need to spend 10k to run under. I did build it myself and did some of the prep myself, so that saved some money.
Hope this gives you some insight:

I have a set of used Venolia #400 pistons +.040 over. Stocker torque plate hone, back cut 2nd ring, low tension oil rings, Eagle rods(chevy ends) 6.635( legal), Harts in Cecil Ohio did my crank, .013 offset ground, pistons down .005 in the hole, Running the race chevy rod bearing, full groove mains, clearances .0035, 60LB pump, crank scraper, no tray, factory baffled pan, with plate welded on rear, so oil wont climb it on launch. Cam is .424/.424 251/256* on 108LSA, in at 105 ICL... heads are down to 65cc with good valve grind, 45* seats, Ferrea Valves and COmp springs 160/340 at 1.675 I.H.

As far as the converter goes, Stockers nowadays need lots of converter, since we allowed to run durations, similar to small roller cams...Im actually pretty happy with the way the engine performed this year, as it really doesnt have crazy valvetrain components, such as limited travel lifters, or ceramics, for that matter, and not running crazy spring pressures(yet), and a really mild cam, as far as Stockers go. Wanted to keep things sort of simple, just to get the car out on the track with a new combo and make lots of passes. 91 on it so far. Gonna step it up a bit, next season, with 2.75 low gear, light drum, well prepped 350 trans, bigger cam, more spring pressure, limited travel lifters, and most likely more stall speed. I hope to see some sub 11.20 passes by seasons' end. I wont make all the changes at once...


My chassis is proven, and dialed in with a 10.80 bracket engine, so i wasnt fighting the gremlins, there. Also would like to add, i've been given alot of valuable advice, along the way, by some fellow Pontiac Stocker racers, and Chevy guys, too... I figured everyone would be alot more secretive, but found that everyone is willing to help, where they can. I , as much as anyone, would hate to see this side of the sport die out...I imagine that is part of their motivation...Without their help, i may have not run .26 under , my 1st attempt..

[bob3240]

Good luck this year Brent. A lot of the advances in ET are the tires. The radials of today are as good as the old 14-32's of the 80's.
Looking forward to seeing you at Indy. Bob M.

[brent flynn]

Yea, tires are a huge improvement... Who woulda thought that there would be 8 second Stockers , on 9'' tires, 30yrs ago? Yep, i plan on Indy...i probably wont have made many changes to the car, but i hope to be there! I may have trans swapped by then, but not sure... Lookin forward to seeing you Bob, and everyone else!

[oldskool]

Brent, thanks for sharing that info !

I noticed you got an 8hp hit. I think that's the 1st one for that combo, ever. I know it was 330 in the mid '70's. Is the change enuff to affect you at all ? Will you have to add a little weight or make any other changes ?

[brent flynn]

Yeah, i think that deal adds about 80lbs to the car ... thanks to a certain guy from California...hehe

[oldskool]

Well, you've heard the saying, "Inquiring minds want to know."

So I'd really like to know. I've noticed that some engine builders called Parsons and Meyers, have built the engines for a lot of the quicker Pontiac Stockers. So they obviously build better Pontiac Stocker engines than most.

So, with this in mind I'd like to know about how much one of their 400 Stocker engines would cost. I know, "If you have to ask you can't afford it." I'm not planning to buy one, but I am curious about the price of one.

I mean, in general terms, are we talking 10, 15, 20 thousand ? Or ? I tried to Google up their website. I reckin they don't have one. Must be busy building engines and don't have time to waste online.

Since you built your own, I figure you checked on the price of a store bought one, so you would know how much you could save by doing it yourself.

But hey, if this is top secret info, I'll just let it go.

[brent flynn]

I only have a shade over 4k in mine...keep in mind, the pistons and rods were used, and got a smokin' deal on them... I've heard prices ranging from 10-15k for a competitive class winning engine( like mine), not a new Hemi...hehe...
Two reasons i did not go that route... 1) Want to build my own stuff, and learn what i can from it, even if its not the fastest thing on the planet. 2) I cant afford a big money deal, so, winning heads up races are not part of my plan, anytime soon.
There are not too many 'young' guys(im 45) starting in Stock, unless they were born into a family that races Stock, or they have fat wallets. Im neither, so i have to do it slowly. But, it doesnt deter me from trying it... Making factory parts go fast is a challenge...anyone can build a Jegs bracket car...ive done it, and dont really enjoy it as much. Luckily i didnt cut my car up, as ive had it for 27 years, and Stock was always my goal. I just finally got around to it.
I would, however, like to send a set of heads to a known Stock guy, and get a real good set done, but that is a good 2-3k, and that wont happen soon... I believe with some tweaking, i can see some 11teens with the stuff im gonna do this season... Meanwhile, im gonna run the crap out of it...hehe

[oldskool]

Since the stock heads can't be ported, and some are better than others, do you know if the top guys, running the 330hp engine, gather up lots of 16 & 62 heads and check 'em on a flow bench to find the best ones ?

[brent flynn]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Since the stock heads can't be ported, and some are better than others, do you know if the top guys, running the 330hp engine, gather up lots of 16 & 62 heads and check 'em on a flow bench to find the best ones ?

Yeah, i would imagine so... i wanted to do that, since i have 4 pair...i will eventually do that..i have 3 intakes as well...