Track is making up rules - Page 2

Jeff Goss · 07-10-2011, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cicero819

Mr Marvetz, slow your car down to 12:15, Congrats. on beating Don Elgin, one of the greats of the sports, anytime you beat Don Elgin you've accomplished something. I have to agree with the track, don't break out of your index, if it's 12:00 to 12:99 and you go 11:99 I'm sorry but you broke out. If you want to be the fastest than you're taken your chances. Are you trying to be the fastest to have the benefit of the first to red light or just seeing your opponent all the way? Either way they are right, and you have to play by their rules, it's only fair. I've raced in this context many years ago and I made sure that my car wouldn't run any faster than 12:03 flat out. Claude

The issue is, that has never been the rule. A track manager selectively chose to change the way it had always been run. Read the NHRA Summit E.T. Racing rules. It says nothing about a breakout-only the 12.00 limit in Sportsman.

Phil has a gripe here. It again comes down to interpretation of NHRA rules.

cicero819 · 07-10-2011, 08:27 PM

Jeff I was thinking of specific index such as 12:00 to 12:99 and 11:00 to 11:99 If this was explained at the beginning of the year at the racers meeting than it's whatever the track owner sets as his rules. Dale Wilson former editor of Bracket Racing USA had an article on the subject many years ago dealing with this problem and his recommendation was to go to the track management and ask for the rules of his track( every time you went to a new track). Now if the management is changing what is their official rules halfway through the year, now that is different. Just go to another track if one is available. Claude

Mickey Whaley · 07-10-2011, 08:27 PM

disqualify everyboby then they can shut the gate because of this steupid *** rule?

Jeff Goss · 07-10-2011, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cicero819

Jeff I was thinking of specific index such as 12:00 to 12:99 and 11:00 to 11:99 If this was explained at the beginning of the year at the racers meeting than it's whatever the track owner sets as his rules. Dale Wilson former editor of Bracket Racing USA had an article on the subject many years ago dealing with this problem and his recommendation was to go to the track management and ask for the rules of his track( every time you went to a new track). Now if the management is changing what is their official rules halfway through the year, now that is different. Just go to another track if one is available. Claude

Claude, I completely understand what you are saying. If that was how the rules were presented, at the beginning of the year, then all is good.

The rest of the NHRA tracks-that compete in the NHRA's Summit E.T. Racing Series-do not do it the same way. This presents a problem. Mission Raceway is among the elite in the Division, and to have the rules change mid-way-without the input from the racers (which is the way they always have done it)-undermines the Mission Team's ability to compete on a level playing field, and alienates the racers.

If NHRA did this as a wide, sweeping change of the rules across the Nation, then I would agree that everyone is in the same boat. But, to change at one track-on the whim of a Manager- is unacceptable.

This is why tracks have Class representatives. Apparantly, they were not advised of the proposed rule change.

I have no dog in this fight, but right is right.

larry dowty · 07-10-2011, 10:44 PM

sorry phillip i didnt get what you were saying, if they go faster than 12.00 in sportsman they should loose period

Phillip marvetz · 07-11-2011, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cicero819

Mr Marvetz, slow your car down to 12:15, Congrats. on beating Don Elgin, one of the greats of the sports, anytime you beat Don Elgin you've accomplished something. Claude

I didn't beat Don, He let me have it. Our win/lose ratio is in his favor by a long ways. I ran 12.01 flat out trying to catch him so it's not like I was holding a tenth all day. The car picked up a few hundredths after first round and I got lucky on 2 double breakout races. .008 in the 3rd round.
That's when this all started, The head of tech stopped the fellow from 3rd round and told him he should protest me. He refused to protest the race but did go ask the race director what the rule was, They both went thru rulebook and couldn't find anything. The race director came to me next and my response was that the tech was mistaken about the rule. He then went to the tech guy and they went to section 2 page 6 and decided they could use that rule. That rule is for .90 class cars at NHRA event's though, Not Summit E.T bracket cars. I pointed this out but the tech guy won't hear any of it from me. The race director was supposed to contact NHRA for more info and get back to me. A few day's later this new rule is posted on the website.
I can slow the car down and be safe but that really isn't the point. I just want them to do what's right, Not cram a made up rule down our throats. They could have called a meeting of the sportsman racers or consulted with the class reps for input.
The funny thing is last year was dominated by cars dialing the bottom of the index, not this year though. A lot of the slow cars have won, Jim Mantle even took me out the first weekend with his Pacer.
I know they can do whatever they want but this seems unnecessary and not very well thought out.

It is a club owned track but none of the members race in sportsman as far as I know so I don't think that is the reason, Unlike Bremerton

Dion, I've won 2 out of 7 completed races so far, There were 3 cancelled races also. Are you coming down for the National open?

Phillip marvetz · 07-11-2011, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry dowty

sorry phillip i didnt get what you were saying, if they go faster than 12.00 in sportsman they should loose period

Larry,
The winners of the E.T finals that go to Pomona for the world championship don't get Dq'd for breaking out, Why should I?

Bret Kepner · 07-11-2011, 03:20 AM

For those who are confused, Phil is not talking about a dial-in or an index. He is discussing the "top and bottom" of the elapsed time "breaks" for a given eliminator.

As an example, many tracks offer Super Pro Eliminator "breaks" of 6.50 seconds to 11.99 seconds indicating the minimum and maximum permitted dial-ins. Phil is describing a Sportsman Eliminator "top break", (minimum dial-in), of 12.00 seconds. In this scenario, he was dialed "at the break" of 12.00 and won a double-breakout race, (or ran all-out on a single), with an 11.99 or quicker.

This has been the only real "rule" in bracket racing performance since the genre was created in the early 1960s. While the class "breaks" vary between tracks, the minimum dial-in has always been the only dividing line between eliminator categories. A handful of tracks do offer warnings but most simply disqualify the driver who "walks the tightrope" by dialing on the "break" and slipping. Ironically, I find this rule almost universally in place at non-sanctioned tracks.

The NHRA and IHRA have a "courtesy rule" in the Junior Dragster ranks in which the first violation is overlooked but, when racing "big cars", you take your chances. It's all part of the game.

Anybody who races at a track which allows two violations in one day is lucky. The fact you still get one free ride is extremely rare and, Phil, you should be grateful for it. Most folks would simply be shown the gate.

bad man · 07-11-2011, 05:01 AM

It looks like most of you still dont understand what phil is talking about. In sportsman class you can not put a dial in on quicker than 12.00 that is the rule at all div 6 tracks.This is new for this year at the div 6 et finals. Last year it was 12.80 for all the tracks you could not dial quicker than 12.80.But if you turned 12.79 or quicker you were not dq it is just a brake out.closes to the dial wins just like it should be. Turning 11.99 on a 12.00 dial is no difference its just a brake out. Ive been racing in the bracket classes for 42 years and ive seen a lot of rule changes and to be dq for brakeing out on a legal dial in of any kind isnt one of them. The bottom line is you can not put a dial in on that is quicker than the class your running if you brake out its just that a brake out and may the best racer win. If you still dont under stand get a hold of the div 6 tech director and he will explain to you.DON THE WORM ELGIN

Phillip marvetz · 07-11-2011, 11:33 AM

Thanks for the post Don, I think this whole thing is your fault for letting me get past first round anyways, LOL. Thank's again buddy.
I have heard that the Div6 director has been put in the position to dq racers a few times now and has not. That makes it pretty clear that breaking out is not a rulebook violation.

Thanks for all your input guy's,

Phillip

07-10-2011, 08:27 PM	#12
cicero819 VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Aylmer Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,086 Likes: 31 Liked 69 Times in 30 Posts	Re: Track is making up rules Jeff I was thinking of specific index such as 12:00 to 12:99 and 11:00 to 11:99 If this was explained at the beginning of the year at the racers meeting than it's whatever the track owner sets as his rules. Dale Wilson former editor of Bracket Racing USA had an article on the subject many years ago dealing with this problem and his recommendation was to go to the track management and ask for the rules of his track( every time you went to a new track). Now if the management is changing what is their official rules halfway through the year, now that is different. Just go to another track if one is available. Claude

07-10-2011, 08:27 PM	#13
Mickey Whaley VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,220 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Track is making up rules disqualify everyboby then they can shut the gate because of this steupid *** rule?

07-10-2011, 10:44 PM	#15
larry dowty Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: chewelah wa Posts: 283 Likes: 0 Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Track is making up rules sorry phillip i didnt get what you were saying, if they go faster than 12.00 in sportsman they should loose period __________________ larry dowty 6388 SS

07-11-2011, 03:20 AM	#18
Bret Kepner Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 418 Likes: 1 Liked 11 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Track is making up rules For those who are confused, Phil is not talking about a dial-in or an index. He is discussing the "top and bottom" of the elapsed time "breaks" for a given eliminator. As an example, many tracks offer Super Pro Eliminator "breaks" of 6.50 seconds to 11.99 seconds indicating the minimum and maximum permitted dial-ins. Phil is describing a Sportsman Eliminator "top break", (minimum dial-in), of 12.00 seconds. In this scenario, he was dialed "at the break" of 12.00 and won a double-breakout race, (or ran all-out on a single), with an 11.99 or quicker. This has been the only real "rule" in bracket racing performance since the genre was created in the early 1960s. While the class "breaks" vary between tracks, the minimum dial-in has always been the only dividing line between eliminator categories. A handful of tracks do offer warnings but most simply disqualify the driver who "walks the tightrope" by dialing on the "break" and slipping. Ironically, I find this rule almost universally in place at non-sanctioned tracks. The NHRA and IHRA have a "courtesy rule" in the Junior Dragster ranks in which the first violation is overlooked but, when racing "big cars", you take your chances. It's all part of the game. Anybody who races at a track which allows two violations in one day is lucky. The fact you still get one free ride is extremely rare and, Phil, you should be grateful for it. Most folks would simply be shown the gate. __________________ Bret Kepner BRETKEPNER@Prodigy.net Saint Louis, Missouri, USA

07-11-2011, 05:01 AM	#19
bad man Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 15 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Track is making up rules It looks like most of you still dont understand what phil is talking about. In sportsman class you can not put a dial in on quicker than 12.00 that is the rule at all div 6 tracks.This is new for this year at the div 6 et finals. Last year it was 12.80 for all the tracks you could not dial quicker than 12.80.But if you turned 12.79 or quicker you were not dq it is just a brake out.closes to the dial wins just like it should be. Turning 11.99 on a 12.00 dial is no difference its just a brake out. Ive been racing in the bracket classes for 42 years and ive seen a lot of rule changes and to be dq for brakeing out on a legal dial in of any kind isnt one of them. The bottom line is you can not put a dial in on that is quicker than the class your running if you brake out its just that a brake out and may the best racer win. If you still dont under stand get a hold of the div 6 tech director and he will explain to you.DON THE WORM ELGIN

07-11-2011, 11:33 AM	#20
Phillip marvetz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lynden ,WA Posts: 820 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Track is making up rules Thanks for the post Don, I think this whole thing is your fault for letting me get past first round anyways, LOL. Thank's again buddy. I have heard that the Div6 director has been put in the position to dq racers a few times now and has not. That makes it pretty clear that breaking out is not a rulebook violation. Thanks for all your input guy's, Phillip __________________ 2009 V/SA Record Holder