Stock and the late models, a solution. - Page 2

FINESPLINE · 10-13-2010, 04:12 PM

Ok Ken , I will go with Jimmy C. Why should the tail wag the dog ? Why try making the class fit the car . This class racing has been around a long time and why should they rewrite the rules to fit these cars as they DO NOT fit the intent or the RULES of the class. Leave the class alone. I am all for late models in stock but ones you buy from the dealer with a VIN and factory warranty.-John

Emmett Mikolajczyk · 10-13-2010, 06:20 PM

My vote is with Jimmie Carter--stock is not broke so quit trying to fix it--put the new cars in there own class--and that goes for super stock also-it aint broke so dont change it--food for thought-who is going to want one of these new fords or chryslers in a couple of years when they weigh 6000 lbs because they tried to put them in stock--they need a class that allows them to be run at the mfg weight and see how fast they will run ,instead of chokeing them into stock or super stock--who knows some day I might want to race one --something tells me that the car counts will keep on shrinking if someone with NHRA does not make a good decision-- my plans for raceing next year will depend on what NHRA does on this topic--thats my 2 cents worth--Emmett

Billy Nees · 10-13-2010, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daran Summerton

The easy fix is no heads up in the eliminator. If folks wish to spend $150,000 on a cupcake for $200 and a trophy for class well then God bless em. I'm not bashing but FI classes were deleted a couple years ago and class win payout remains unchanged. Hence, the poor car counts. I'm for combining sticks and autos with a drastic purse adjustment. Adding classes has already failed in the past. Division 2 is looking dismal and there doesn't appear to be any incentive to get racers excited about next year. When there is only 25 Stockers in the lanes the new cars really don't bother most unless you have a heads up. I think purse should be adjusted before classes are.

Daran, if we are going to go to that then why not go to my idea (sarcastic, of course)?
No more class designations, engine has to look stock, flat hood, 9" tires, dial the car and race! We can call it "ET-2".

Jack Matyas · 10-13-2010, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Daran, if we are going to go to that then why not go to my idea (sarcastic, of course)?
No more class designations, engine has to look stock, flat hood, 9" tires, dial the car and race! We can call it "ET-2".

What a way to start the day off - Billy and I agree on something - can't wait to see what happens the rest of today . Stock should be just that ..........more classes is not the answer . If we were to make all the changes that are suggested I wouldn't need the NHRA -- we could all just go to our local track every weekend .

Ken Miele · 10-13-2010, 08:20 AM

Jim,

You and I know that the new cars are not going away. For better or worse they are in Stock and will stay in Stock.

It does not matter what we call the new cars, I was just making a suggestion.

These are only ideas, and I would rather see constructive suggestions than beating a dead horse that they don't belong in stock.

Darren, Suggesting to make it a bracket racing only is not going to happen.

I ask members to please suggest ideas, if you wish to hammer NHRA, please do not do it in this thread.

Pete, your are probably right about the sticks, the cars are pretty equal today.

Dick Butler · 10-13-2010, 08:42 AM

Ken,
You have listed good thoughts.
Discussion of class combinations to reduce numbers is important too.
50 lb added to Stick wt is a good start. Many Stick classes are just not run as intensely as auto classes due to numbers of cars and cost and maintainence of the stick cars.
Latest clutchless trans (if used) can boost performance even more.
Heads up runs are a MUST in Stock and SS to keep it a "race" not a bracket show.
Crate motors, if given an equivalent factor of the motor they resemble are a positive.
No more junk yard searches.Issue is appearing like a non production car.
.75lb between classes has been discussed by Len Imbrogno as a definite workable separation which decreases classes.
Drag racing "Class Racing" needs the Factory excitement and involvement. BUT they need the limits managed better than in the 60s and 2000s have shown.
Now if NHRA just will really LISTEN or THINK constructively all will improve.

Jim Carter · 10-13-2010, 01:21 AM

Ken:

With all due respect, the tail is wagging the dog.
Why are we making all these changes to our beloved Stock Eliminator to accomodate a few new cars?

Keep them out of stock and don't change a damn thing.

Boom!! Problem solved!! No new classes in stock eliminator.

We can't call those cars the "natural" progression of Stock because they are Not Stock.

Not without rewriting the rules. And when does late model no longer mean "late model?
Some people refer to a 1995 Camaro LT-1 as late model. The damn thing is 15 years old. A few more years and it qualifies for antique plates.

When did our humble little world of stock eliminator become the big three's show case to the universe?? When they (or the govt) decide to impose a moratorium for racing and cut us loose like a hot potato, then what?

Leave stock alone and start a new category. Call it whatever you want , just don't call it stock. The "powers that be" changed the rules and lowered indexes just to give these cars a place in a category they don't belong in.

This "new car" category can showcase all the latest technology they want, but unless that motor (and trim) comes on a production vehicle that you can order from the dealer and drive down Main Street it is not stock. It is "something else". Those DP intake system are not stock. NHRA wants to make Ford, GM and whoever owns Chrysler happy? Fine. Just leave the world of traditional NHRA stock the way it was before someone got the bright idea to "let the tail wag the dog".
They can rate their engines however they want to.

Case closed!! Simple!
Why are we beating a dead horse??
These cars will be the death of stock eliminator.

Just my two cents.

JimmieC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Miele

1: New classes specifically for late model performance vehicles.

2: Proposed name, Late Model (LM).

3: Classes are for 2005 and newer vehicles. Designed to allow late model cars to advertise real horsepower levels and compete with one another while keeping the older cars relevant in the Eliminator.

4: Bringing factories into the sport to showcase what they sell.

5: Make it cheaper and easier to build fast stockers from street cars. Parts are readily available and a 2005 Mustang can be had for a little more than $10k.

6:Real horsepower ratings (2011 Mustang is 412hp, 2010 is 315hp, V8 Camaro is 435hp I think, etc.)

7: Inclusion cars like CJ's and DP's can race in Late Model, but with horsepower factored higher. Instead of 400hp say 600hp. The rating would be more realistic, the way it would be if you bought them as crate engines from their catalogs.

8: No "natural" class - let people put the cars at the weight they want for their engine hp

9: No automatic class. Sticks carry an added 50lbs, but they all are the same class.

10: Any auto trans allowed. The Jerico is basically a Ford toploader and everyone runs it so why not let Ford or Chrysler guys run a Turbo 400? The bellhousing are readily available and more than half the internals on the auto transmissions aren't stock anyway or use another brand.

11: Any custom piston allowed as long at is measures correctly. Seems silly if everyone is buying aftermarket pistons to worry about a list. If it measures correct then it's good.

New Class Ideas:

Lighter weight breaks so cars are safer and more relevant to what's on the showroom (Corvette has a 3200lbs 638hp car from the factory)
ALM - 5lbs
BLM - 5.75lbs
CLM - 6.50lbs
DLM - 7.25lbs
ELM - 8lbs
FLM - 8.75lbs
GLM - 9.50lbs

LM cars still have to run factory suspension and have limit on cam lift. These are not SS cars. Just a natural evolution of stockers to keep up with the times and availability of parts. Why should we pay the same amount of money for an inferior part?

The biggest problem with this is that it adds more classes. There are too many already. There hardly any heads up runs in the eliminator and many classes during runoffs are either unopposed or
have no competitors.

I would propose changing the weight steps between classes. .75lbs steps where they are currently .5lbs, and 1.5lbs steps where they are currently 1lbs. There should be fewer classes than there are now even adding the LM classes.

Another idea is crate engines. This could really keep costs down and make parts easy to find. The manufacturers have crate engines that are equal power for their circle track programs.

This could be a Super Stock item but in the spirit of keeping costs down Stock seems like a better fit. We'd have to factor the horsepower differently so they are competitive but this could jump start some cars where parts are expensive or hard to find as well as allow cars that are dialed in to get engines capable of making them faster for higher classes. The crate engines would be just like the car came from the factory with that engine and could go into any like make body.

These ideas allow older cars to stay out there and be competitive while at the same time allowing the new cars to flourish. If we can get corporate support and young people interested in racing affordably, we can make Stock and Super Stock like it was in it's prime.

Thanks for everyone's time.

Eric Merryfield · 10-13-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Miele

Below is a list of ideas and proposals on how to join the old with the new and still make Stock a great place to race.

The ideas below are not all mine, they come from many racers.

I would like to here more input and suggestions. Please do not turn this thread into a NHRA bash. I would like to here constructive ideas. I would also like to keep this thread civil, if your going to respond in a discourtesy way please do not post.

1: New classes specifically for late model performance vehicles.

2: Proposed name, Late Model (LM).

3: Classes are for 2005 and newer vehicles. Designed to allow late model cars to advertise real horsepower levels and compete with one another while keeping the older cars relevant in the Eliminator.

4: Bringing factories into the sport to showcase what they sell.

5: Make it cheaper and easier to build fast stockers from street cars. Parts are readily available and a 2005 Mustang can be had for a little more than $10k.

6:Real horsepower ratings (2011 Mustang is 412hp, 2010 is 315hp, V8 Camaro is 435hp I think, etc.)

7: Inclusion cars like CJ's and DP's can race in Late Model, but with horsepower factored higher. Instead of 400hp say 600hp. The rating would be more realistic, the way it would be if you bought them as crate engines from their catalogs.

8: No "natural" class - let people put the cars at the weight they want for their engine hp

9: No automatic class. Sticks carry an added 50lbs, but they all are the same class.

10: Any auto trans allowed. The Jerico is basically a Ford toploader and everyone runs it so why not let Ford or Chrysler guys run a Turbo 400? The bellhousing are readily available and more than half the internals on the auto transmissions aren't stock anyway or use another brand.

11: Any custom piston allowed as long at is measures correctly. Seems silly if everyone is buying aftermarket pistons to worry about a list. If it measures correct then it's good.

New Class Ideas:

Lighter weight breaks so cars are safer and more relevant to what's on the showroom (Corvette has a 3200lbs 638hp car from the factory)
ALM - 5lbs
BLM - 5.75lbs
CLM - 6.50lbs
DLM - 7.25lbs
ELM - 8lbs
FLM - 8.75lbs
GLM - 9.50lbs

LM cars still have to run factory suspension and have limit on cam lift. These are not SS cars. Just a natural evolution of stockers to keep up with the times and availability of parts. Why should we pay the same amount of money for an inferior part?

The biggest problem with this is that it adds more classes. There are too many already. There hardly any heads up runs in the eliminator and many classes during runoffs are either unopposed or
have no competitors.

I would propose changing the weight steps between classes. .75lbs steps where they are currently .5lbs, and 1.5lbs steps where they are currently 1lbs. There should be fewer classes than there are now even adding the LM classes.

Another idea is crate engines. This could really keep costs down and make parts easy to find. The manufacturers have crate engines that are equal power for their circle track programs.

This could be a Super Stock item but in the spirit of keeping costs down Stock seems like a better fit. We'd have to factor the horsepower differently so they are competitive but this could jump start some cars where parts are expensive or hard to find as well as allow cars that are dialed in to get engines capable of making them faster for higher classes. The crate engines would be just like the car came from the factory with that engine and could go into any like make body.

These ideas allow older cars to stay out there and be competitive while at the same time allowing the new cars to flourish. If we can get corporate support and young people interested in racing affordably, we can make Stock and Super Stock like it was in it's prime.

Thanks for everyone's time.

Ken,

Thank You for model that could go a long ways towards helping the situation.

I might suggest that it be taken one rather huge step forward and insist for the future of the sport that more automakers products be added to the classification guide.

This would require more tech involvement and new knowledge, but the under 40 crowd isn't that driven to buy a camaro, challenger or stang.

Adding the performance cars from Honda, BMW, Mercedes, Subaru, Mini, Mitsubitsi, Nissan etc could go a long ways towards gathering interest of the future crowd.

There are more than a few rear wheel drive cars in there that would make very interesting race cars. And a late model FWD car could be down right cheap to do if the HP factor wasn't too onerous.

Just my two cents as I reflect on the good the bad and the ugly of the situation.

I think that stock/superstock is the best car show on earth, but in that lies the problem.....car shows are often antiques and I would wager that 70% of stock/superstock cars are indeed older than 1985.

Eric Merryfield

10-13-2010, 04:12 PM	#1
FINESPLINE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Island of high taxes, N.Y. Posts: 541 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. Ok Ken , I will go with Jimmy C. Why should the tail wag the dog ? Why try making the class fit the car . This class racing has been around a long time and why should they rewrite the rules to fit these cars as they DO NOT fit the intent or the RULES of the class. Leave the class alone. I am all for late models in stock but ones you buy from the dealer with a VIN and factory warranty.-John

10-13-2010, 06:20 PM	#2
Emmett Mikolajczyk Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Antonio Texas Posts: 38 Likes: 0 Liked 2 Times in 1 Post	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. My vote is with Jimmie Carter--stock is not broke so quit trying to fix it--put the new cars in there own class--and that goes for super stock also-it aint broke so dont change it--food for thought-who is going to want one of these new fords or chryslers in a couple of years when they weigh 6000 lbs because they tried to put them in stock--they need a class that allows them to be run at the mfg weight and see how fast they will run ,instead of chokeing them into stock or super stock--who knows some day I might want to race one --something tells me that the car counts will keep on shrinking if someone with NHRA does not make a good decision-- my plans for raceing next year will depend on what NHRA does on this topic--thats my 2 cents worth--Emmett __________________ Emmett Mikolajczyk 4924 STK, SS

10-13-2010, 08:20 AM	#5
Ken Miele Live Reporter Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 4,862 Likes: 461 Liked 16,560 Times in 1,523 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. Jim, You and I know that the new cars are not going away. For better or worse they are in Stock and will stay in Stock. It does not matter what we call the new cars, I was just making a suggestion. These are only ideas, and I would rather see constructive suggestions than beating a dead horse that they don't belong in stock. Darren, Suggesting to make it a bracket racing only is not going to happen. I ask members to please suggest ideas, if you wish to hammer NHRA, please do not do it in this thread. Pete, your are probably right about the sticks, the cars are pretty equal today.

10-13-2010, 08:42 AM	#6
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. Ken, You have listed good thoughts. Discussion of class combinations to reduce numbers is important too. 50 lb added to Stick wt is a good start. Many Stick classes are just not run as intensely as auto classes due to numbers of cars and cost and maintainence of the stick cars. Latest clutchless trans (if used) can boost performance even more. Heads up runs are a MUST in Stock and SS to keep it a "race" not a bracket show. Crate motors, if given an equivalent factor of the motor they resemble are a positive. No more junk yard searches.Issue is appearing like a non production car. .75lb between classes has been discussed by Len Imbrogno as a definite workable separation which decreases classes. Drag racing "Class Racing" needs the Factory excitement and involvement. BUT they need the limits managed better than in the 60s and 2000s have shown. Now if NHRA just will really LISTEN or THINK constructively all will improve.