65-85 under.

[Mike McCandless]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Let's be honest, the classes (Stock and Super Stock) need more competition, more speed, and lower ET's, in order to draw new competitors, and new spectators. We're still not working hard enough to get more class eliminations happening in front of more people, and we're not working hard enough to create more rewards for qualifying, for winning heads up races, etc. Whether or not it benefits any individual directly, it benefits the classes. And we're here literally arguing about whether or not to turn people loose and let them race without crippling their combination. I don't think racers or spectators are going to hang around for 1000' agreed dumps.

More speed and lower ET's isn't the key to getting new blood into S/SS. The nature of the class makes it incredibly difficult for an outsider to come in. The class is fueled by multi decade racers or son/daughters of multi decade racers. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, Only the hardest core of racers would jump into the hornets nest, which limits the potential participants. I believe S/SS is the biggest it will be and will only go down in participation over time.

[Kirk Morgan]

I think thats a good question as to how much new blood is coming into the sport. We have seen a few posts on new people and projects. We all know it is usually cheeper to buy a running combination. The truth be known many people dont have that much cash to dole out at once. Iam currently a friend build a car that will be class legal but will have a bracket motor in it to sort out the car and then move to super stock. I think 75% of the racers will not be affected by the new rules.

[Glenn Briglio]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

The indexes, honestly, haven't kept up with technology. Nor, unfortunately, have they kept up with what NHRA has allowed to pass tech in Stock. NHRA made those choices. A lot of them I certainly don't agree with myself.



Sadly, a lot of combinations haven't, whether or not they can.


I can see where people want the indexes lowered, and why. Even though lowering the indexes would make my life harder, and returning to Stock more questionable. And I'd dearly love to return. having a life threatening disease will make you want to live, and do things. It changes your perspective. Drastically. We won class a few times. We came close to a national event win a couple of times. And I left Indy with my tail between my legs. I have things I'd like to do before I take a dirt nap, things I've come close to.



Racing Stock is a series of choices. NHRA makes a lot of them for you. But you make a lot for yourself. If you choose to race Stock, you chose to race under the rules as they stand.


You choose your car (unless you have a partner who owns it). Now, it's up to you how you choose it, and what factors you considered. Is it something you had? Is it something you got cheap? Did you choose it because you like it? Did you choose it because you have an emotional attachment? But the factors you take into consideration when you choose, are your choice.



If you didn't choose it because it's a competitive combination, and it has support from the aftermarket, then you made the choice, and you don't really have a ton of room to complain. If you chose to try to race Stock on a shoestring budget, you're not going to be very fast, unless you're really good, not many of us are that good. Your choice. If you're not going to tear your stuff down and update, upgrade, test, etc, that's your choice, you chose not to be competitive. It takes the willingness to test, tune, and do R&D to be competitive. If there are cores available, someone will make cams for you. The piston companies will make pistons, and Total Seal makes lot of rings. There are valve companies that will make you valves. If you chose a combination where your stuff has to be "one off", the key phrase is "you chose a combination".


Am I a fan of what NHRA is letting through tech now? Hell NO! I'd love to see NHRA turn Wesley and Travis loose, and let them deal with it. Am I a fan of superseded parts? Not really, but I do see a reason in some cases. I just bought another cast iron original head, to have a second pair of original cast iron heads. I bought a set back that I sold. I don't like the cost to be competitive. I'm not running my own, and we've parked the orange Camaro, as much due to cost as anything. We know what it costs to compete at the level we want to. We don't feel like we can spend that money right now. We're not crying because others can. We're just parked.


As my late friend and fellow racer, Ronnie Duke, was fond of saying, "all drag racing takes is time and money. All your time, and all your money." Being competitive is a choice, if you're going to be competitive, you're going to devote a lot of your life, time and treasure. In Stock and Super Stock especially. And, as Dirty Harry Callahan wisely said, "A man's got to know his limitations".

Billy I couldn't have said it any better. You choose what you choose and know the rules and tech and have consequences for what you do or don't do.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Glenn Briglio

Billy I couldn't have said it any better. You choose what you choose and know the rules and tech and have consequences for what you do or don't do.

Barry, Glenn, Alan, you can call it a "Christmas epiphany" if you'd like but after looking at Nitro Joe's and some recent history, I will no longer dis-agree with moving the indexes! We all deserve what we get.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Barry, Glenn, Alan, you can call it a "Christmas epiphany" if you'd like but after looking at Nitro Joe's and some recent history, I will no longer dis-agree with moving the indexes! We all deserve what we get.

Billy,
It's easy to look over how fast people are going if you're concentrating on your combination that's unusual, and fits in a class that isn't too popular. I understood where you were coming from. What passes for "progress" sneaks up on everyone, especially us old guys. We don't necessarily like it, or agree with it. A lot of it I don't call progress.



I'm not a fan of the superseded parts, but I understand the demand. I know how long I searched for Chevrolet parts that I could afford. I think it's too bad a lot of the others have it even worse.



For some, there's nothing available to replace what they either can't find, or can't afford. The thing is, you can't punish everyone for the shortcomings of some, and you can't hold everyone back, either. If you told people "they don't make those for everyone, so you can't have it, even if they're common for you", no one would put up with it. This isn't third grade, where the teacher says "have you got a piece of gum (or candy) for everyone". It's not incumbent upon one group top have something made for every group. And since combinations are factored individually.....



What I don't see as progress is what's getting through tech these days. I have a very close friend who I won't name, but we were watching Stock at Indy, and watching a few cars run, he looked at me and said "I could put his heads on my Super Stocker and it wouldn't slow down 0.05". I took him some Stock heads I had for a customer, and he looked at them and told me "these heads would probably pick up your buddy's Super Stock motor about 0.50".


We literally asked about the valve job rule for Stock, and were told by tech guys, "Just don't make us look stupid". Well, with a good TIG welder and the right blast cleaner, I can do a lot that won't make you look stupid, because if you don't have an unmodified head laying there, or you haven't seen a thousand of them, you won't SEE what we did, so you won't "look stupid". I couldn't get an actual answer as to whether or not a radius valve job was legal. "We'd have to see it". It's a radius valve job, here's the cutter I want to use. "We'd have to see it". So if you decide you don't like it, you can't tell me in advance, but I'll have to cut eight seats out of two heads, and put eight more in, and hope all the work doesn't mess up the rest of the work, and hurt the heads.



Of course, the problem is, when caught, a bunch of childish people want to sue. So, NHRA doesn't want the fight. It wrecks the class, but what do we do? We as racers can't fix it. Like a lot of things, I don't know what the solution is. I know that I/we won't do it. We may not be as fast. But we'll be truly legal.


I love these classes, I want to see them survive and thrive. But I don't know the solutions, or claim to.

[Billy Nees]

Alan, everything you've said here is pure truth. Thank you.

[Stan Weiss]

Wasn't there a rumor a couple if years ago that NHRA was going to purchase a Faro Arm system and measure a number of stock heads and use them as a reference against what people were running?

Stan