Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[Adam Strang]

The 350 is also rated at 305 in the GTO.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

Run that deal as a 72. the 315 hp 455 is a good deal. I ran 10.80's in G with that combo in 09. The heads are a dime a dozen, very easy to find.

OK, Thanks Todd ! That's what I need--info from somebody with 1st hand experience with a particular engine.

Now, all the clean GTO bodies I've seen in the last few years are overpriced and out of my price range. So, I looked down the list of cars that can run this engine. I like the Lemans wagons at 13.0 weight break. One reason is because I noticed the ET for 13.0 is 2 tenths slower than for 12.50 break. So, even with a heavy car, a 12.65 should be doable, without any major financing.

The wagon will have to weigh: 13.0 x 315hp = 4095lb. Now when I think of the '72 Lemans wagon, I automatically think of the "Tons a Fun" and Jim Hand's wagon with the GTO front on 'em. But I figure they are rare and high dollar by now also. So one with just the plain Lemans front would do.

The next car on my list would be the GP. They should be much cheaper than a Goat or a wagon IF you can find one that is decent, that hasn't been crushed. You could run the GP in the 12.50 weight break. It would have to weigh 12.5 x 315 = 3937.5lbs That's 157.5lbs lighter than the Wagon. The rule of thumb is that 100lbs = 1 tenth of a sec ET. So the same engine should run about .15 quicker in the GP. But the index for the GP will be 12.45. That's 2 full tenths quicker than the wagon's index. So, on paper, you'd come out .05 better with the wagon.

Hey, I don't mean to bore ya'll with these figures. But when you are trying to run the index on a VERY low budget, every hundredth counts.

Now, I'd really rather drive a 2-door Lemans. So I'm thinkin that a Lemans will be easier to find than a wagon or a GP. And if it's got a decent body, but a ragged out inside and a shot or missing engine, I may be able to find one cheap and start from scratch.

Hey, I know it'd be easier to buy something ready to race or at least a good roller, less engine & trans. And I'd be glad to do that. But remember, this is a LOW budget deal. But I reckin it will really be more rewarding to build something from scratch, than to just be able to plunk down the $$ and go racing. But, hey, I'd like to try that just once to see if it was fun or not.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

Run that deal as a 72. the 315 hp 455 is a good deal. I ran 10.80's in G with that combo in 09. The heads are a dime a dozen, very easy to find. I know somebody who has a set of .060 Ross pistons, and an older set of prepped stocker heads that you could most likely make a deal for to get you started. You could race that deal with stock lifters, and normal spring pressure as well. Also no EGR valve in the intake.

The best way to attach the headers to the ends of the port is to drill and tap them. Then use a simple stud.

screw in studs is a simple process that anybody can do, don't let that scare you away.

Turning that car into a 77 is alot of time an effort, plus some money. Im not sure that 5c deal is the way to go either. No compression at all. the 72 455 will pour to 9.2 compression. that other deal will be lucky if it makes 8.0

the 71 455 has a very small intake runner. 144cc and at 325 is a dead player

I didn't realize the 72 7M5 deal was 10 hp less than a 66 cast head. What's the deal with that? 10 less hp for peanut plugs?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

I was going to suggest a 74 GTO SS combo @250 hp..Build it like a Stocker, but with a flat tappet cam and an Edelbrock intake.
It ought to run under the SS/MA, 11.85 index

This got me to thinkin more about a Pontiac SS combo. The best one that comes to mind for my situation seems to be to use the '68 Bird, in a GT class.
What I like about the GT class is that it makes any Pontiac engine legal, from the 301 to the 455.

A '77 350 4-barrel has a 250hp factor in GT/auto

A '78 W72 220hp 400 has a factor of 289 in GT/auto.

A '75 455 has a factor of 300hp in GT/auto

I haven't checked out all the engine possibilities. But one I did check out one that looked real good. It's a '68 428.

The '68 iron head 428 has a 320hp GT/auto factor.

And NHRA has approved an Edlebrock alum head # 60587 for the '68 428.

The alum head 428 has a 330hp GT/auto factor.

You are allowed to shave these heads down to 65cc. That will provide a CR in the 13's. So, at 320-330hp, with 13:1 CR and a 4" stroke, I consider this one of the best lookin GT/auto engines. And, of course, you can now use an aftermarket block and build a shortblock that will support some serious power. I suspect some of the quickest Pontiac GT guys are running this engine.

Hey, it's out'a my range. For you guys with a few bucks to burn on a SS car, this looks like a real good GT engine.

I love the 455. I won't include the round port HO and SD engines, cause the heads are too rare and expensive. But the 455 I see as possibly the best choice for GT is the '70 with #64 heads. It'll have a high CR and a 335hp GT/auto factor.

That would put you in GT/EA at 3350 lbs, with a 10.65 index. Now at this point in life, I really don't wanna go that fast. But for you guys that do, this looks like an easy way to go SS racing without selling your soul. This engine should go 10.50's with a good hyd flat tappet cam, without going passed 6000rpm. If not, a mild roller will will get you there E-Z.

Another advantage of running this combo is that if you are trying to do it on a real tight budget, and don't quite get it under the index, you can run the 10.90 heads-up class, til you can get your ET down where you want it. Also, for you guys who live in a area like I do, that has very few class races, this will make a real good, low maintenance bracket car.

Now I realize that there are lots of guys on this site who don't like either the .90 classes or bracket racing. But, to me, any kind of racing is better than settin at home and not racing at all. I speak from experience.

Notice: I have absolutely no problem with anybody who likes only class racing. If I was younger and had unlimited funds, I'd probably go to just the big races, with my new motor home, enclosed trailer and a couple of Pontiacs that would run a sec under.

[oldskool]

OK, we've talked about Birds, Vents, Wagons and GP's. But we haven't looked much at the '69-72 A-body cars. I'm kinda partial to these cars, because my 1st, and what has turned out to be my only new car, was a '69 GTO.

So let's look 1st at the possible Stocker combos with a '69 GTO. Again, I won't mention the RA4 because the heads are too rare and expensive. That leaves the std 350hp and the RA3 engine.

The 350hp engine now has a 325hp factor. This is basically the same engine as the 330hp that is factored at 338 in the '68 Bird and 345 in the '69 Bird. I reckin that means that nobody has been makin any noise in a '69 GTO lately. That's probably because a clean '69 GTO body is worth so much.

The 366hp RA3 is still factored at the factory rating. Therefore it is a real bad choice for a Stocker. The cam is about the only difference, and since the cams have only lift limitations today, it is not even a factor. So the RA3 could not compete. The 350hp engine, does look like it could be competitive, if you got the coins to come up with a good '69 GTO body.

The 350HO has a 325hp factor, but that's the same as the 350hp GTO engine, so why give up 50 cubes ?

So, for this post, I'll conclude by saying that if you can afford a '69 GTO body, it looks fairly good for the 350hp engine as long as the factor stays at 325.